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Old 05-15-2016, 03:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavsfan137 View Post
I can't disagree with that, but this guy was in Florida (now in his 70s), so of course both cities were in different straits then. As per Indians, I think that could help, but I do really wonder how much dynamic pricing actually helps in terms of revenue. I mean, I think in some ways with the way they've done that the past few years at least, they were more expensive than numerous franchises, but since they were earning more per ticket and not opening certain sections. Hopefully the new renovations will help to draw more people this summer, because they need it.
In recent years, there have been real bargain tickets on stubhub.com for games against less popular foes, even for weekend games. If you pick the right pitching match-ups and great weather a few days before the game, it's a great way to see an Indians game. It probably doesn't work for the Yankees or the Red Sox. Season ticket holders must dump tickets on stubhub.com.
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Old 05-18-2016, 07:09 AM
 
Location: Greater Orlampa CSA
5,005 posts, read 5,604,644 times
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They really do have to, so deals are there through the resale market, that I will explore when in town. Still though, I do have concerns about the team moving (I know 8 years is a long way off, so a lot can happen), considering at this point attendance is 14,000, which is about 5,000 less per game than any franchise not named Tampa Bay. Obviously, it will pick some in June/July/August, but even so, the Indians are my favorite Cleveland team and I really wouldn't want for them to leave, but there is wonder about whether a Charlotte or Portland or Montreal could support the team more... Anyone else think this is legitimate? Anything large scale someone could do (like me) research wise that would aid the Indians in reaching fans? The Cleveland CSA is larger than that of Charlotte or Portland, at least for the next census or two, and as evidenced by the 90s, the max potential for Indians fan support is higher than it would likely be in those cities, but the regional competition in 3 directions certainly doesn't help matters (Youngstown/Erie likely have close to as many Pirates fans, likewise with Columbus and the Reds, Toledo and the Tigers, etc.
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Old 05-18-2016, 07:31 AM
 
11,610 posts, read 10,316,322 times
Reputation: 7213
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavsfan137 View Post
They really do have to, so deals are there through the resale market, that I will explore when in town. Still though, I do have concerns about the team moving (I know 8 years is a long way off, so a lot can happen), considering at this point attendance is 14,000, which is about 5,000 less per game than any franchise not named Tampa Bay. Obviously, it will pick some in June/July/August, but even so, the Indians are my favorite Cleveland team and I really wouldn't want for them to leave, but there is wonder about whether a Charlotte or Portland or Montreal could support the team more... Anyone else think this is legitimate? Anything large scale someone could do (like me) research wise that would aid the Indians in reaching fans? The Cleveland CSA is larger than that of Charlotte or Portland, at least for the next census or two, and as evidenced by the 90s, the max potential for Indians fan support is higher than it would likely be in those cities, but the regional competition in 3 directions certainly doesn't help matters (Youngstown/Erie likely have close to as many Pirates fans, likewise with Columbus and the Reds, Toledo and the Tigers, etc.
It's a worry, but perhaps not with the Dolans owning the team. Although they are vilified, the Dolans are life-long Cleveland natives, unlike the Great Traitor of Browns history (who will not be named).

Within the next few years, the Indians should have a powerhouse team. Let's see how attendance is when the Tribe once again starts to compete for a title.

I do worry that, unlike the Cavs' regional market, the Tribe's micro-market is a great worry especially as baseball becomes diminished in popularity, especially in northeast Ohio with the great popularity of football and increasingly, basketball. These negative factors are compounded by the northeast Ohio economy, under great peril IMO due to "The Republican Toll Road's" massive toll increases planned for the I-90 corridor over the next quarter century. Greater Cleveland's economy still has a significant manufacturing base, where truck deliveries are key to "just-in-time" inventory management, as well as finished product deliveries. The Republican Toll Road very well may crush northern Ohio manufacturing.
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Old 05-18-2016, 07:42 AM
 
Location: Cleveland and Columbus OH
11,046 posts, read 12,341,171 times
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If the Indians move, which I think is a long shot (baseball is declining in popularity nationwide, after all, would be hard to establish a team in a market that hasn't had one in a sport that fewer people are watching), it would be 100% the fault of the "fans" in Cleveland. We have a likable team, an excellent manager, 2 games over .500 today, cheapest tickets and food/drinks in the MLB, and it's not unusual to have games that don't reach 10k fans. Pathetic.

To be fair, baseball in Cleveland in April is a bit premature, even May is cold at night (and it apparently still snows in CLE), so that doesn't help. But other northern cities still will sell out, or at least have respectable crowds of at least 20k. The lowly Twins in Minneapolis average 24k per game. That's 10k more than the Indians. I don't understand Clevelanders sometimes. Tribe games are a blast.
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Old 05-18-2016, 08:30 AM
 
Location: livin' the good life on America's favorite island
2,221 posts, read 4,371,915 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
It's a worry, but perhaps not with the Dolans owning the team. Although they are vilified, the Dolans are life-long Cleveland natives, unlike the Great Traitor of Browns history (who will not be named).

Within the next few years, the Indians should have a powerhouse team. Let's see how attendance is when the Tribe once again starts to compete for a title.

I do worry that, unlike the Cavs' regional market, the Tribe's micro-market is a great worry especially as baseball becomes diminished in popularity, especially in northeast Ohio with the great popularity of football and increasingly, basketball. These negative factors are compounded by the northeast Ohio economy, under great peril IMO due to "The Republican Toll Road's" massive toll increases planned for the I-90 corridor over the next quarter century. Greater Cleveland's economy still has a significant manufacturing base, where truck deliveries are key to "just-in-time" inventory management, as well as finished product deliveries. The Republican Toll Road very well may crush northern Ohio manufacturing.
So to sum up the Tribe will be leaving town due to the GOP,
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Old 05-18-2016, 10:05 AM
 
11,610 posts, read 10,316,322 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZnGuy View Post
So to sum up the Tribe will be leaving town due to the GOP,
Major league pro sports teams, even more than cultural institutions that cater more to the wealthy or which have huge endowments, depend upon mass support. The Indians especially are vulnerable because they effectively have one of the smallest, is not the very smallest, markets in the MLB, due to competition from Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, and Detroit. It will help immensely if the Indians can wrest central Ohio from the Reds, more likely now that the Columbus Clippers are the Tribe's AAA franchise. A great play-off run in the next few years while the Reds are in a so-far disastrous rebuild could hasten the processs.

There is no doubt that the massive decline in manufacturing in Greater Cleveland in the last four decades have destroyed much of the financial potential fan support for the Indians.

Cleveland's declining economic status has been rooted in the American political system's destruction of our manufacturing base, and by the decline in our infrastructure in favor of debt-financed foreign military adventures. Both the Democrats and Republicans are responsible. Americans are beginning to understand all of this, as evidenced by the Trump and Sanders political campaigns.

Key among the political disasters is implementing free trade agreements without tax reform. The fact that foreign manufacturers import large numbers of vehicles and auto parts into the U.S. is an example of the problem. All of our significant trade partners rely greatly on a value-added tax to raise tax revenues. Under the GATT, a VAT can be rebated on exports and assessed on imports, effectively becoming legal tariffs on imports and export subsidies on exports if one trade partner, such as the U.S., doesn't utilize VATS.

Since the 1960s when Canada initialized its VAT system to boost manufacturing, it has taken a good share of the N. American auto manufacturing, especially in parts, from the U.S., despite having high union wages. Mexico has more recently creamed the U.S., helped by both a VAT and cheaper labor costs. China has used very steep VATs to limit imports of goods from the U.S., even of semiconductors.

Larry Lindsey, the one-time George W. Bush economic guru, has explained all of this well to Congress, but it has fallen on deaf ears.

Lindsey, Lawrence B., Testimony before the Senate Budget Committee, 02/02/11 | VAT (Value Added Tax) Information | VATINFO.org

The Greater Cleveland economy used to manufacture a myriad of products, such as fractional electric motors, which are now imported.

So the U.S. has gone from the world's largest creditor nation at the start of the Reagan administration, to the world's largest debtor nation today. Real incomes have shrunk, certainly making expensive pro sports a luxury for many families in the American middle class.

The "Republican Toll Road" is an additional economic disaster being imposed more uniquely on just the northern Ohio and Indiana economies solely by the Republicans.

What is the "Republican Toll Road?" The Indiana Republicans entered into a long-term lease of I-90 through Indiana. The Ohio Republicans leveraged the Ohio Turnpike, with the $1.5 billion in debt to be repaid by escalating tolls. In both cases, much of the higher tolls were used to finance road construction far away from both the Indiana Toll Road and the Ohio Turnpike. In both cases, future tolls will rise, capped only by the rate of inflation (likely to average at least 2 percent a year) or by a minimum of 2 percent annually in the case of the Indiana lease (e.g., tolls could increase in Indiana even in a deflation).

http://www.toledoblade.com/MarilouJo...-public-1.html

http://www.ohioturnpike.org/docs/def...tationplan.pdf

http://www.indystar.com/story/opinio...iers/17888099/

http://www.bondbuyer.com/news/region...1066358-1.html

Already, a truck toll from Akron to Chicago is about $80. With just-in-time inventory systems prevalent in modern manufacturing, few manufacturers can afford this disparate burden, especially when the I-70/I-65 corridor from Pittsburgh to Chicago remains toll-free.

Whether you, our wretched local newspapers, or our local politicians understand this, economists do understand and have issued warnings.

Foremost among these economists is Ned Hill, a top economic development expert, former dean of the highly rated Maxine Goodman Levin College of Urban Affairs at Cleveland State, and now a professor of economic development at Ohio State.

https://engineering.osu.edu/news/201...lopment-policy

In the past, Hill has noted how the trucking industry moved south to the I-70 corridor, and noted that the Lordstown GM plant would never be built today given the toll structure on I-76/I-90, and that was before the Ohio Republicans leveraged the Ohio Turnpike to be financed by higher tolls.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/artic...l-may-be-rough

Republican supporters of privatization seem ignorant of the indisputable economic unfairness of making one transportation corridor substantially more expensive than competing corridors. I'm not certain when northern Ohioans will figure this out. If the Indians are forced from Cleveland (and the Browns and Cavaliers may not far behind) by the final demise of our manufacturing economy, it will become obvious. Hopefully, I'll be dead by then, but I doubt it.

As our significant remaining manufacturing base is eroded, and given the substantial negative multiplier effects of lost manufacturing jobs on northern Ohio's general economy, the onslaught of consequences of the "Republican Toll Road" will impact not only professional sports franchises, but also our cultural institutions and even the likes of the Cleveland Clinic.

Last edited by WRnative; 05-18-2016 at 10:54 AM..
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Old 05-18-2016, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Greater Orlampa CSA
5,005 posts, read 5,604,644 times
Reputation: 3935
Very detailed post, but also somewhat depressing. As someone who considers myself libertarian-ish (moderate fiscal conservative and social moderate liberal on most things) I feel like a true classical conservative would feel the notion of a toll road anywhere to be absurd, and that from what you described it sounds almost more like a short term money grab for the state than any commitment to principle. Is there any silver lining you see in all of this, or any way a political candidate at a higher level could take steps to reverse some of this (interesting that you mentioned Sanders and Trump. I've also seen posts before from you that took generally more heavily liberal or conservative angles
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Old 05-19-2016, 04:01 AM
 
11,610 posts, read 10,316,322 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavsfan137 View Post
Very detailed post, but also somewhat depressing. As someone who considers myself libertarian-ish (moderate fiscal conservative and social moderate liberal on most things) I feel like a true classical conservative would feel the notion of a toll road anywhere to be absurd, and that from what you described it sounds almost more like a short term money grab for the state than any commitment to principle. Is there any silver lining you see in all of this, or any way a political candidate at a higher level could take steps to reverse some of this (interesting that you mentioned Sanders and Trump. I've also seen posts before from you that took generally more heavily liberal or conservative angles
Sure, the state legislature could realize that they are jeopardizing the northern Ohio industrial base, and that many manufacturing jobs will leave the state entirely. Northern Ohio could begin to resemble southeast Ohio in its economic outlook. Ohio legislators could raise the gasoline tax, as should have been done originally, to not only pay for infrastructure, but to refinance the $1.5 billion of turnpike bonds and stop the threatening toll increases on the Ohio Turnpike. Candidly, there should be NO Ohio Turnpike.

However, almost all Republicans have signed a no tax increase pledge. They won't either at the federal or state level vote to increase gasoline taxes easily (note they did vote to increase the state sales tax a few years ago, but largely to cut taxes on the more wealthy).

Obviously, there is mounting political recognition that something is rotten, as evidenced by the surprising success of the Trump and Sanders campaigns. However, IMO, both Trump and Sanders seem rather ignorant with unworkable solutions. Meanwhile, it's business as usual with mainstream Republicans and Democrats.

That still won't solve the problem of the Indiana Toll Road. That nut is so much larger and more complex than the Ohio Turnpike leveraging, it's likely only action by the U.S. Congress could solve the problem -- e.g., mandating that all interstates through any state have the same tolls per mile. That solution seems very unlikely, especially when the Cleveland newspaper monopoly in Ohio even refuses to raise the issue, and when even northern Ohio Congressional representatives have failed to address the issue. Obviously, regions with free interstates wouldn't look kindly on paying tolls, even if they admitted the unfairness of the current situation, which they don't, as is obvious when the topic is broached on the C-D Ohio forum.

Probably, the only thing that would save northern Ohio and Indiana is turning the entire federally supported interstate system into a toll system, with the same tolls per mile everywhere. That may be plausible, even necessary, within a decade when the debt and unfunded liabilities of the federal government become overwhelming.

My hunch is that the Cleveland economy, and very likely the Cleveland MLB franchise at a minimum, have a very bleak future until Congress wakes up and institutes workable policies to save American manufacturing and to eliminate the unfairness of steep tolls on some interstates versus free tolls elsewhere.
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Old 05-21-2016, 08:46 AM
 
3,281 posts, read 6,252,097 times
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What happened to this thread?

Manufacturing as a means of creating wide-scale job growth is all but dead. The sooner we here in Northeast Ohio realize that, the better. Automation of those types of jobs is an inevitability. We should be focusing on growing the healthcare segment of our economy.

As for the Ohio Turnpike, it's a complete disgrace the way that the rest of the state uses our commuters as an ATM in such a manner. That needs to change (and in fact, I'd support Northeast Ohio breaking off and becoming its own state, but that's a pipe-dream).

All of that aside, I'd be shocked if the Indians moved anytime soon. Attendance may be down, but television revenues are significant.
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