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Old 01-31-2018, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Boston, MA
7,905 posts, read 6,839,868 times
Reputation: 6645

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yac View Post
Nothing says "American" more than all this fighting over race or who or what is racist. From an outsiders point of view at least.
Before anyone gets the great idea to fight over this - don't.
This.

 
Old 01-31-2018, 11:54 AM
 
4,237 posts, read 3,295,872 times
Reputation: 1837
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
Here's the take of long-time PD/Cleveland.com sports columnist Bill Livingston.

<< Not until the last week of my last visit to Cleveland Indians' spring training in 1992 in Tucson, the final season before they temporarily relocated to Florida, did I really ask Native Americans about Chief Wahoo, the comic strip Indian with the fire engine red face and the big grin....

When I arrived, a Lenten parade was taking place, featuring a deer dancer with antlers. I waited until the paraders had moved on, then asked where I might find the tribe's chief. I wanted to ask him, now that the Indians were moving out, what he thought about the whole idea of Chief Wahoo as a symbol and Indians as a team name.

Not much, it turned out.

When the Indians first moved to Tucson, I was told, the young boys on the Yaqui reservation thought the team was going to be made up of real Native Americans.

That was their first disillusionment.

A bigger one was Wahoo.

I unfolded the schedule and asked several members of the reservation how they felt about the cartoon chief.
"Do I look like that?" one said.

"Do any of my people look like that?" the Yaqui chief said.

I began to feel a palpable sense of embarrassment about Wahoo that I never had before. That was only because I had never cared enough to find out what real Indians thought, though....

Unfathomably, the racist [emphasis added] symbol will remain on display on the field for one more season.>>

How some real Indians felt about Chief Wahoo -- Bill Livingston | cleveland.com

A good definition of a racist caricature may be a racist caricature is one that causes embarrassment when shown to a person of the ethnic background that is the subject of the caricature. That seems to be Livingston's learning moment.
Well I knew a couple large Native American families (real Indians) on the west side and they loved the Indians and Chief Wahoo, so there's that.

If Chief Wahoo has to go then it all must go: the name Indians, John Adams War Drum, etc.

Try any St Pat's Day Parade crowd for embarrassing, racist, and stereotyping caricatures. Not many learning momemts there I guess.
 
Old 01-31-2018, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Boston, MA
7,905 posts, read 6,839,868 times
Reputation: 6645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamms View Post
Well I knew a couple large Native American families (real Indians) on the west side and they loved the Indians and Chief Wahoo, so there's that.

If Chief Wahoo has to go then it all must go: the name Indians, John Adams War Drum, etc.

Try any St Pat's Day Parade crowd for embarrassing, racist, and stereotyping caricatures. Not many learning momemts there I guess.
I'm not sure if people are serious when they mention Irish stuff and the St Patrick's Day Parade, but I actually am against that nonsense. What a shame what's happened to a strong ethnic tradition honoring a saint.
 
Old 01-31-2018, 01:17 PM
 
4,237 posts, read 3,295,872 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjimmy24 View Post
I'm not sure if people are serious when they mention Irish stuff and the St Patrick's Day Parade, but I actually am against that nonsense. What a shame what's happened to a strong ethnic tradition honoring a saint.
Well the Irish have the alcohol and violence stereotypes so seeing the St Pat's Day gear is not helping the stereotypes.

If your Irish or Irish-American you are expected to drink alcohol...oh, and be racist and violent, before being tossed into the Paddy Wagon and hauled to jail.
 
Old 01-31-2018, 01:37 PM
 
Location: East of the Sun, West of the Moon
15,016 posts, read 16,584,830 times
Reputation: 28876
I know a Navajo guy from New Mexico who went to school in Wooster, Ohio. You can't pry his Chief Wahoo hat off his head.

Maybe Ohio tribes are more sensitive about it.
 
Old 01-31-2018, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Boston, MA
7,905 posts, read 6,839,868 times
Reputation: 6645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamms View Post
Well the Irish have the alcohol and violence stereotypes so seeing the St Pat's Day gear is not helping the stereotypes.

If your Irish or Irish-American you are expected to drink alcohol...oh, and be racist and violent, before being tossed into the Paddy Wagon and hauled to jail.
Just sad to see the degree to which the Irish-Americans have forsaken their own culture. There still is a remnant of actual Irish-Americans around who celebrate St Patrick's Day (for instance, the day actually begins with mass, not Irish car bombs at 10 am).
 
Old 01-31-2018, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,793 posts, read 12,771,684 times
Reputation: 5460
I'm glad everyone has an anecdote to share, but I'm not sure how they're relevant. If the symbol was someone in blackface, it'd be pretty clearly racist and there would be no debate, but a bright red, grinning caricature of a Native American is okay? Forget the history and tradition arguments, because lots of terrible things have been justified in the past based on those ideas. Is this really how you see Native Americans... real, actual people?
 
Old 01-31-2018, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
20,895 posts, read 22,484,943 times
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I just bought a Cleveland T shirt last summer to go with my Lakewood shirt. Iíll have to get a new Indians shirt to support The Tribe. I havenít had the need to by a baseball T since I lived in Chicago up until the late 70ís. Portland doesnít have a B.B. team.

Gotta get the wardrobe up to date.
 
Old 02-01-2018, 04:36 AM
 
7,070 posts, read 4,087,609 times
Reputation: 3565
Sports Illustrated MLB writer Jon Tayler:

<<There are two camps of thought on Wahoo. One is that the logo is a racist caricature that demeans an entire group of people who have been systematically oppressed for 400 years. The other consists of folks who insist that the logo isn’t racist because, well, they don’t think it is.

But there is no argument here. Wahoo is racist, full stop. [Emphasis added.]

Wahoo represents what fans see as the comfortable, quiet past—one where offensive depictions of an entire race were looked upon as good clean fun. To defend Wahoo reveals how bone deep the prejudice against Native Americans is in this country. Supporting a caricature so hopelessly outdated proves how the average American either doesn’t understand or doesn’t care about a historically marginalized populace. It’s simple, willful ignorance to claim Wahoo isn’t racist, but the logo still garners plenty of support among Indians fans.>>

https://www.si.com/mlb/2018/01/30/cl...ief-wahoo-logo

It's perhaps significant that few, if any, persons outside of Cleveland Indians fans are defending Chief Wahoo or arguing that the logo is NOT racist.

It would be interesting at this point in time if someone would do a statistically valid opinion poll of Greater Clevelanders to see if our local society believes Chief Wahoo is racist and whether or not the logo should be consigned to the dustbin of history.

What is certain to me is that the large number of Clevelanders defending Chief Wahoo does not reflect well on Cleveland outside of Cleveland, as evidenced by the above column. The above column also interestingly, and arguably fairly, criticizes Indians management and MLB baseball for not outright saying the Chief Wahoo logo is racist, and thereby allowing lucrative Chief Wahoo merchandise sales to continue into the future. Cleveland.com/PD opinion writers who supported the decision to remove Chief Wahoo from Indians' uniforms likely were deficient in not similarly criticizing the Dolans and MLB.

<<At no point was this choice about sensitivity, or even about right and wrong. It was about business, and so is the choice to keep selling Wahoo merchandise when the team doesn’t have to, or about keeping the logo until 2019 to placate those fans who are so dearly attached to a grinning red face and to give them a chance to celebrate and buy their racist memorabilia.>>

Last edited by WRnative; 02-01-2018 at 04:49 AM..
 
Old 02-01-2018, 05:09 AM
 
7,070 posts, read 4,087,609 times
Reputation: 3565
Default Native Americans react to the Chief Wahoo decision

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...iforms-in-2019

<<“You cannot honor people you do not respect,” Sundance argues. “As a people, we demand dignity. We are not asking for honor. When a native person stands up and says, ‘Hey this is not right; no one gave you the right to use our pseudo-name, category or images,’ people say, ‘Shut up and listen. We are honoring you. You are too stupid to understand this.’

“We are not too stupid to understand what is going on. We have seen Indian heads used to dehumanize us and to put out a call for mass-murder against us for the past 500 years. To see a bunch of drunken people with Indian heads shouting slurs and chanting ‘Go Indians!’ is not an honorable environment and it is not an honorable experience.”

Roche makes another point about this so-called honorific: “When you honor somebody, you really might want to get their approval. That is not happening. The problem is that people have been brought up generation after generation, being told that Native Americans are being honored. But they have never heard our side of it.”>>

https://indiancountrymedianetwork.co...s-chief-wahoo/

National Congress of American Indians lauds the decision to ban Chief Wahoo from the field.

<<“Over the past four decades, NCAI, hundreds of tribal nations, and their many partners have succeeding in eliminating more than two-thirds (roughly 2,000) of the Native-themed mascots from sports at all levels (nearly 1,000 remain today). NCAI is pleased to add the Chief Wahoo mascot and logo to that long list.”>>

https://indiancountrymedianetwork.co...hoo-logo-2019/

The demise of Chief Wahoo has been a long-term goal of the NCAI, although you would never guess it from the "my native American friend loves Chief Wahoo comments" in this forum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...all_Poster.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...erican_Indians

<<Clyde Bellecourt, co-founder of the Minneapolis-based American Indian Movement, or AIM, said Chief Wahoo was the “ugliest” of the many mascots based on Native American caricatures used by American sports teams.

“It’s about time, we’ve been after them for years,” said Bellecourt, 81, a member of the Chippewa tribe. >>

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-c...-idUSKBN1FI2DX

As for persons of native American ancestry loving Chief Wahoo, I personally would wonder how divorced they are from their cultural ancestry and if they are so assimilated into the general Cleveland culture as to be insensitive to the opposition to Chief Wahoo so intensely felt in the native American community.

I would also note that I haven't seen any person of native American ancestry publicly defending the Chief Wahoo logo.

Yesterday, I heard on NPR an interview of a native American who said that the opposition to Chief Wahoo mushroomed in the 1950s when 20,000 native Americans were relocated to Cleveland when Cleveland became a relocation center under the Indian Relocation Act of 1956. Unfortunately, I couldn't find that interview in order to post it here. It was the first time that I heard of this act or that Cleveland was a specified relocation center.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian...on_Act_of_1956

This article says only 5,000 native Americans were relocated to Cleveland under the relocation act.

https://case.edu/ech/articles/a/american-indians/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clevel...go_controversy

Russell Means, a leader of the Cleveland native American community and an opponent of Chief Wahoo, died in 2012.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heEOnEcY5IU

Last edited by WRnative; 02-01-2018 at 05:37 AM..
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