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Old 02-23-2017, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, OH
9,828 posts, read 9,112,649 times
Reputation: 8821

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
First of all, it's a 0.8 mile walk from Public Square to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, a walk that most residents wouldn't make often at all, if ever.

Tourists could walk up Euclid Ave. to the Arcade, visit the Public Library, then head up East 9th St. Clearly, there are major hotels, residences, and employment along East 9th St. To say there is nothing in between Public Square and the Rock Hall is utter nonsense.

However, tourists also could take a free bus trolley much closer to the Rock Hall, or just take the Waterfront rail rapid. Good mass transit contributes greatly to a city's walkability.

Cleveland's downtown sports venues, convention center, and entertainment districts are incredibly compact and connected by robust mass transit compared with any other city which comes to mind.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Publ...41.5085414!3e2

You're really quibbling about 1 mile vs 0.8??!?!?!?

Actually I was going by this above link. 0.9. And then I rounded up. Which would be fair to do with 0.8 too.

Not sure why we are talking about tourists. And i mean, we are talking about specifically WALKABLE things. Not trolleyable or light railable. So I'm very confused.
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Old 02-23-2017, 11:58 AM
 
Location: WA
738 posts, read 485,191 times
Reputation: 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
First of all, it's a 0.8 mile walk from Public Square to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, a walk that most residents wouldn't make often at all, if ever.

Tourists could walk up Euclid Ave. to the Arcade, visit the Public Library, then head up East 9th St. Clearly, there are major hotels, residences, and employment along East 9th St. To say there is nothing in between Public Square and the Rock Hall is utter nonsense.

However, tourists also could take a free bus trolley much closer to the Rock Hall, or just take the Waterfront rail rapid. Good mass transit contributes greatly to a city's walkability.

Cleveland's downtown sports venues, convention center, and entertainment districts are incredibly compact and connected by robust mass transit compared with any other city which comes to mind.
I consider Boston and Paris to be highly walkable cities...the scale is smaller and city more compact. There are tons of cafes, shops, parks etc along the way making it very enjoyable and not so tiring. Yes, the trolleys help but overall it's not that enjoyable to walk many blocks in downtown Cleveland (for me). I'm aware of the distance whereas in a more walkable city I'm not.
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Old 02-23-2017, 12:08 PM
 
13 posts, read 91,402 times
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Couple of other thoughts:
1.) The natural generational turn-over. Most of the people that moved to the 'burbs in the 50s/60s/70s are likely in the 70 year old+ demographic. So they're downsizing from a house to an apartment/senior home or natural attrition
2.) Their kids have already moved on to other suburbs. For instance I'm finding that many of the kids that grew up in the inner ring burbs like Cleveland Heights/South Euclid/Lyndhurst/Willoughby are now living in Solon/Hudson/Chagrin Falls/Aurora/Chesterland/Chardon.
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Old 02-23-2017, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, OH
9,828 posts, read 9,112,649 times
Reputation: 8821
Quote:
Originally Posted by october2007 View Post
I consider Boston and Paris to be highly walkable cities...the scale is smaller and city more compact. There are tons of cafes, shops, parks etc along the way making it very enjoyable and not so tiring. Yes, the trolleys help but overall it's not that enjoyable to walk many blocks in downtown Cleveland (for me). I'm aware of the distance whereas in a more walkable city I'm not.
This is also what I was saying. Walking from Boston Public Library on Boylston to Park Street Church is roughly the same distance as Public Square to Rock Hall. Those walks don't have even close to the same feeling! If anyone debates that, I guess I don't know how to answer.

And this is coming from a guy who likes Cleveland more than Boston, by the way. Just saying some things really are cut and dry though.
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Old 02-23-2017, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, OH
9,828 posts, read 9,112,649 times
Reputation: 8821
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJPNYC View Post
Couple of other thoughts:
1.) The natural generational turn-over. Most of the people that moved to the 'burbs in the 50s/60s/70s are likely in the 70 year old+ demographic. So they're downsizing from a house to an apartment/senior home or natural attrition
2.) Their kids have already moved on to other suburbs. For instance I'm finding that many of the kids that grew up in the inner ring burbs like Cleveland Heights/South Euclid/Lyndhurst/Willoughby are now living in Solon/Hudson/Chagrin Falls/Aurora/Chesterland/Chardon.
I would debate point 2. You're talking about people like mid twenties? All my friends from home either live in Cleveland, Lakewood or Cleveland Heights.
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Old 02-23-2017, 01:03 PM
 
9,592 posts, read 6,331,951 times
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My point is that most persons going downtown, other than tourists, don't walk to the lakefront attractions, especially in bad weather. They either drive or take mass transit.

Downtown visitors spend most of their time at the sports venues, PlayhouseSquare, the Gateway District and Warehouse District. Apart from PlayhouseSquare, well connected by trolleys, this is very easy walking with many restaurants and bars along the traffic routes.

As noted, tourists have much to see walking between Public Square and the East 9th St. bridge to the lakefront. Apart from the Arcade and Public Library, many get a kick out of the free stamp. There are several restaurants/bars on East 9th St.

I certainly wouldn't call Paris compact. I spent a sizable amount of time on subways there, and otherwise walked quite a bit. Yes, there are cafes and restaurants everywhere, but who stops at more than one every few hours?

It seems extremely strange to argue that downtown Cleveland isn't compact and walkable. If the argument is that there aren't a lot of benches, that is a great argument. As for parks, my gosh, get a downtown map of Cleveland. Public Square is a park, and it's not difficult to get to the Rock Hall through the Mall, taking Lakeside to East 9th St. Here's one visitor's impression of the Mall and the great surrounding buildings, such as the Old Courthouse.

https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...2015-Ohio.html

Aug. 2015 review:

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attracti...view_396409596

http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral...1_million.html

http://www.cleveland.com/musicdance/...as_banner.html

Look up the thread of the Republican National Convention. Visitors then commented on how easy it was to get around Cleveland.

It's also easy using the Red Line or the Healthline rapids to get to other walkable nodes such as the Market District, Little Italy, or University Circle.

Walks also don't have to be short to be great walks. Many persons enjoy greatly the pedestrian walkway across the northern side of the Hope Memorial Bridge to the West Side Market.

Last edited by WRnative; 02-23-2017 at 01:28 PM..
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Old 02-23-2017, 01:13 PM
 
4,822 posts, read 4,050,058 times
Reputation: 2162
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
My point is that most persons going downtown, other than tourists, don't walk to the lakefront attractions, especially in bad weather. They either drive or take mass transit.

Downtown visitors spend most of their time at the sports venues, PlayhouseSquare, the Gateway District and Warehouse District. Apart from PlayhouseSquare, well connected by trolleys, this is very easy walking with many restaurants and bars along the traffic routes.

As noted, tourists have much to see walking between Public Square and the East 9th St. bridge to the lakefront. Apart from the Arcade and Public Library, many get a kick out of the free stamp. There are several restaurants/bars on East 9th St.

I certainly wouldn't call Paris compact. I spent a sizable amount of time on subways there, and otherwise walked quite a bit. Yes, there are cafes and restaurants everywhere, but who stops at more than one every few hours?

It seems extremely strange to argue that downtown Cleveland isn't compact and walkable. If the argument is that there aren't a lot of benches, that is a great argument. As for parks, my gosh, get a downtown map of Cleveland. Public Square is a park, and it's not difficult to get to the Rock Hall through the Mall, taking Lakeside to East 9th St. Here's one visitor's impression of the Mall and the great surrounding buildings, such as the Old Courthouse.

https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...2015-Ohio.html

Look up the thread of the Republican National Convention. Visitors then commented on how easy it was to get around Cleveland.
Cleveland needs its ped-bridge from Mall C to the lakefront ASAP.
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Old 02-23-2017, 01:15 PM
 
Location: WA
738 posts, read 485,191 times
Reputation: 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
My point is that most persons going downtown, other than tourists, don't walk to the lakefront attractions, especially in bad weather. They either drive or take mass transit.

Downtown visitors spend most of their time at the sports venues, PlayhouseSquare, the Gateway District and Warehouse District. Apart from PlayhouseSquare, well connected by trolleys, this is very easy walking with many restaurants and bars along the traffic routes.

As noted, tourists have much to see walking between Public Square and the East 9th St. bridge to the lakefront. Apart from the Arcade and Public Library, many get a kick out of the free stamp. There are several restaurants/bars on East 9th St.

I certainly wouldn't call Paris compact. I spent a sizable amount of time on subways there, and otherwise walked quite a bit. Yes, there are cafes and restaurants everywhere, but who stops at more than one every few hours?

It seems extremely strange to argue that downtown Cleveland isn't compact and walkable. If the argument is that there aren't a lot of benches, that is a great argument. As for parks, my gosh, get a downtown map of Cleveland. Public Square is a park, and it's not difficult to get to the Rock Hall through the Mall, taking Lakeside to East 9th St. Here's one visitor's impression of the Mall and the great surrounding buildings, such as the Old Courthouse.

https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...2015-Ohio.html

Look up the thread of the Republican National Convention. Visitors then commented on how easy it was to get around Cleveland.
I just have to say that I could easily (ok I was 10 years younger then) walk from one end of Boston or Paris to the other and barely realize how far I had gone. Maybe visitors here find it easy to get around on trolleys, buses, Uber etc but walkable, it really isn't. It's very spread out.
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Old 02-23-2017, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, OH
9,828 posts, read 9,112,649 times
Reputation: 8821
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
My point is that most persons going downtown, other than tourists, don't walk to the lakefront attractions, especially in bad weather. They either drive or take mass transit.

Downtown visitors spend most of their time at the sports venues, PlayhouseSquare, the Gateway District and Warehouse District. Apart from PlayhouseSquare, well connected by trolleys, this is very easy walking with many restaurants and bars along the traffic routes.

As noted, tourists have much to see walking between Public Square and the East 9th St. bridge to the lakefront. Apart from the Arcade and Public Library, many get a kick out of the free stamp. There are several restaurants/bars on East 9th St.

I certainly wouldn't call Paris compact. I spent a sizable amount of time on subways there, and otherwise walked quite a bit. Yes, there are cafes and restaurants everywhere, but who stops at more than one every few hours?

It seems extremely strange to argue that downtown Cleveland isn't compact and walkable. If the argument is that there aren't a lot of benches, that is a great argument. As for parks, my gosh, get a downtown map of Cleveland. Public Square is a park, and it's not difficult to get to the Rock Hall through the Mall, taking Lakeside to East 9th St. Here's one visitor's impression of the Mall and the great surrounding buildings, such as the Old Courthouse.

https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...2015-Ohio.html

Look up the thread of the Republican National Convention. Visitors then commented on how easy it was to get around Cleveland.

It's also easy using the Red Line or the Healthline rapids to get to other walkable nodes such as the Market District, Little Italy, or University Circle.

Walks also don't have to be short to be great walks. Many persons enjoy greatly the pedestrian walkway across the northern side of the Hope Memorial Bridge to the West Side Market.
I personally didn't say that downtown Cleveland isn't walkable. I said it's not as walkable as I would like. That's all.

I have had more fun in downtown Cleveland than boring downtown Boston FWIW. I'm just saying Boston is a lot more walker-friendly in many ways: scenery, other pedestrians out, lots of concentrated amenities, etc. I'm not suggesting that makes it better at all, it just is what it is. Downtown Cleveland would be even better than it is now (which is way better than it was even 5 years ago) if it had more people out and about on some of the side streets.
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Old 02-23-2017, 01:32 PM
 
9,592 posts, read 6,331,951 times
Reputation: 5526
Quote:
Originally Posted by october2007 View Post
I just have to say that I could easily (ok I was 10 years younger then) walk from one end of Boston or Paris to the other and barely realize how far I had gone. Maybe visitors here find it easy to get around on trolleys, buses, Uber etc but walkable, it really isn't. It's very spread out.
This is ridiculous. Walking more than a mile in downtown Cleveland is extremely unusual, unless someone really wants to do so, and most persons never walk more than a third of a mile at one time, especially if they use the trolleys.

Just the Freedom Trail in Boston is 2.5 miles long.

I'm curious. Name one U.S. city where the average distance between the three major sports venues, and entertainment and dining districts, is less than in Cleveland.

Last edited by WRnative; 02-23-2017 at 02:32 PM..
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