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Old 07-28-2017, 09:41 PM
 
10 posts, read 6,475 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QCongress83216 View Post
Says the Warriors homer lol. When the Warriors win, it's how great they are and they're a future dynasty. When the Cavs win, everything is rigged, the refs gave it to them and the Warriors weren't themselves. Kyrie is a great player and a superstar, but let's be real before LeBron he didn't have any success on his own. It seems that everybody gives the Warriors all the glory for beating an injured Cavs team especially Warrior fans, but nobody gives the Cavs any credit for coming back from 3-1 down and beating a 73-win Warriors team. Curry and Iggy played in the last 3 games, no excuses. Curry was the unanimous MVP and didn't show up, Draymond played the last 2 games and they still lost. Championship teams take advantage and go for the win. The Cavs and the Warriors are no different.
Another Cleveland resident blinded by his hometown bias.

1. I'm not a GSW fan, I think forming stacked teams is bad for the league.
2. Cleveland beat a depleted GSW team in 2016.
3. GSW beat a depleted Cavs team in 2015
4. Cavs lost in 2017 because Lebron did not play defense. See the video above. No excuses
5. Kyrie doesn't want to play with lebron, because he's a stat padder that doesn't play defense.

Those are the facts.

2015 win = a wash due to injuries
2016 win = a wash due to injuries/suspensions
2017 win = lebron didn't play defense. He played on a team that was so great, they actually broke 6 NBA finals records in a single game. Kyrie's not a good defender by any means, but at least he TRIED to play defense. Lebron just stood to the side and let KD own his life.
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Old 07-29-2017, 05:44 AM
 
Location: cleveland
2,365 posts, read 4,357,393 times
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Pampered, cry baby millionaire althlete that makes more money than he will ever be worth. Let the cry baby athlete rot on the bench for 2 yrs. he has no respect for the fans that supported him.
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Old 07-29-2017, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, OH
1,881 posts, read 1,420,486 times
Reputation: 1287
Quote:
Originally Posted by anhydride View Post
Another Cleveland resident blinded by his hometown bias.

1. I'm not a GSW fan, I think forming stacked teams is bad for the league.
2. Cleveland beat a depleted GSW team in 2016.
3. GSW beat a depleted Cavs team in 2015
4. Cavs lost in 2017 because Lebron did not play defense. See the video above. No excuses
5. Kyrie doesn't want to play with lebron, because he's a stat padder that doesn't play defense.

Those are the facts.

2015 win = a wash due to injuries
2016 win = a wash due to injuries/suspensions
2017 win = lebron didn't play defense. He played on a team that was so great, they actually broke 6 NBA finals records in a single game. Kyrie's not a good defender by any means, but at least he TRIED to play defense. Lebron just stood to the side and let KD own his life.

First of all, I'm not blinded by my hometown bias. I love Kyrie, but Kyrie didn't play any defense on Steph either because Steph got by him a lot in that series. Also, Kyrie hasn't proven that he can have success on his own. A stat padder is someone who only cares about points and shots and nothing else, LeBron is far from that. He always has a high assist totals people have dogged him for being too unselfish. In this Finals he averaged a triple-double, and this past season Kyrie took more shots than LeBron. Plus, LeBron has been on the NBA All Defensive Team at least five times. I'm not defending LeBron because I have my criticisms of him as well, yes I'm a Cavs fan, but I try to be fair and balanced. He should've passed to an open shooter in the final seconds of Game 3 instead of taking a shot that he wasn't confident in.

As I said before, championship teams find ways to take advantage of the other team's situation or mistakes. What the Cavs and the Warriors have done in the first 2 Finals is no different than the '83 Sixers beating the Lakers without Worthy, the '89 Pistons sweeping the Lakers without Magic, the 2010 Lakers beating the Celtics without Perkins, or the 2013 Heat taking advantage of the Spurs missed free throws in the finals seconds and winning the series in 7 games. Name me one team that's won a championship with taking advantage of the other team's situation. If your favorite team wins a championship, are you gonna complain about who wasn't playing? No. You're going to be excited and celebrate.

Now, you don't like stacked teams in the NBA. What do you think the league should do to rectify the problem?
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Old 07-30-2017, 10:17 AM
 
10 posts, read 6,475 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QCongress83216 View Post
First of all, I'm not blinded by my hometown bias. I love Kyrie, but Kyrie didn't play any defense on Steph either because Steph got by him a lot in that series. Also, Kyrie hasn't proven that he can have success on his own. A stat padder is someone who only cares about points and shots and nothing else, LeBron is far from that. He always has a high assist totals people have dogged him for being too unselfish. In this Finals he averaged a triple-double, and this past season Kyrie took more shots than LeBron. Plus, LeBron has been on the NBA All Defensive Team at least five times. I'm not defending LeBron because I have my criticisms of him as well, yes I'm a Cavs fan, but I try to be fair and balanced. He should've passed to an open shooter in the final seconds of Game 3 instead of taking a shot that he wasn't confident in.

As I said before, championship teams find ways to take advantage of the other team's situation or mistakes. What the Cavs and the Warriors have done in the first 2 Finals is no different than the '83 Sixers beating the Lakers without Worthy, the '89 Pistons sweeping the Lakers without Magic, the 2010 Lakers beating the Celtics without Perkins, or the 2013 Heat taking advantage of the Spurs missed free throws in the finals seconds and winning the series in 7 games. Name me one team that's won a championship with taking advantage of the other team's situation. If your favorite team wins a championship, are you gonna complain about who wasn't playing? No. You're going to be excited and celebrate.

Now, you don't like stacked teams in the NBA. What do you think the league should do to rectify the problem?
Kyrie has never been a good defender. Lebron is a good defender that chose not to defend, and instead conserve his energy for offense. That's the difference here. 3 of those games, Kyrie was hustling to beat Curry to his spots 3 feet behind the 3 point line and front him to deny him the ball. Curry would have scored even more if he didn't do that.

Regarding championship teams, I like to look at the actual context of what happened, instead of hearing nonsense like:

"Cavs beat a 73 win team! What a historic win!!"

When the reality is that the GSW were a shell of their former self due to injuries and playing better teams in the post season and despite that, it took an ice cold dagger by none other than Kyrie to seal the deal.

We can certainly take a closer analysis of Lebron and the real reason why Kyrie wants to leave. No one should be upset by Kryie wanting to leave when Lebron left his title contending teams behind not once, but twice. (cavs first time, and then Miami)

The reality is that lebron has a Big 3 of premium scorers, so why isn't HIS team the one with goat-level offense?... again - insufficient teamwork.. specifically, every teammate saw their assists go down alongside lebron - so the team ranks low in assists and teamwork, and needs super-team talent to get to the finals each year. He has abnormally-high time of possession for a forward so his teammates had less time, and consequently, every teammate saw their assists go down alongside lebron - so the team ranks low in assists and teamwork, and needs super-team talent to win. Here's the stats showing lower teammate assists, and therefore lower team assists. I've put Jordan with and without Pippen below for reference.

APG, Assist %
Wade before Lebron (04'-10'):..... 6.6, 34.8%
Wade with... Lebron (11'-14'):..... 4.7, 25.5%

Irving before Lebron (12'-14'):.... 5.8, 33.2%
Irving with... Lebron.. (15'-17'):.. 5.3, 27.1%

Bosh before Lebron (04'-10'):...... 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh with... Lebron (11'-14'):...... 1.6, 8.0%

Love before Lebron (09'-14'):...... 2.5, 13.0%
Love with ...Lebron (15'-17'):...... 2.2, 11.0%

Mo Will before Lebron (05'-08'):.. 5.7, 30.2%
Mo Will with... Lebron (09'-10'):.. 4.6, 22.3%

Pippen with... Jordan 91'-93':...... 6.5, 24.5%
Pippen w/out Jordan 94'-95':...... 5.4, 23.7%
Pippen with... Jordan 96'-98':...... 5.8, 25.1%

Every key teammate had lower assists alongside Lebron:

So Lebron's teams more often than not rank low in APG:

Bulls 1986:. 19th...................................... Cavs 2005:. 6th
Bulls 1987:. 12th...................................... Cavs 2006:. 24th
Bulls 1988:. 9th....................................... Cavs 2007:. 15th
Bulls 1989:. 6th....................................... Cavs 2008:. 25th
Bulls 1990:. 7th....................................... Cavs 2009:. 20th
Bulls 1991:. 4th....................................... Cavs 2010:. 6th
Bulls 1992:. 3rd....................................... Heat 2011:. 26th
Bulls 1993:. 6th....................................... Heat 2012:. 21st
Bulls 1996:. 5th....................................... Heat 2013:. 7th
Bulls 1997:. 2nd...................................... Heat 2014:. 11th
Bulls 1998:. 7th....................................... Cavs 2015:. 10th
__________________________..................______ _____________________
7.7 average rank for MJ's teams..... 14.8 average rank for Lebron's teams

By reducing his team's APG and teamwork, Lebron needs excessive supporting talent to win (aka team-hopping) and people want to give Kyrie flack for wanting to leave? How many other players other than Wilt have shot 71% with 40+ points in the finals? Answer: Only Kryie

WHY HIGH ASSIST RANKINGS MATTER - without high assists it's impossible to play a high BRAND OF BASKETBALL, which is needed by nearly every championship team (except super-teams with enough talent to offset lesser teamwork)
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Old 07-30-2017, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, OH
1,881 posts, read 1,420,486 times
Reputation: 1287
Quote:
Originally Posted by anhydride View Post
Kyrie has never been a good defender. Lebron is a good defender that chose not to defend, and instead conserve his energy for offense. That's the difference here. 3 of those games, Kyrie was hustling to beat Curry to his spots 3 feet behind the 3 point line and front him to deny him the ball. Curry would have scored even more if he didn't do that.

Regarding championship teams, I like to look at the actual context of what happened, instead of hearing nonsense like:

"Cavs beat a 73 win team! What a historic win!!"

When the reality is that the GSW were a shell of their former self due to injuries and playing better teams in the post season and despite that, it took an ice cold dagger by none other than Kyrie to seal the deal.

We can certainly take a closer analysis of Lebron and the real reason why Kyrie wants to leave. No one should be upset by Kryie wanting to leave when Lebron left his title contending teams behind not once, but twice. (cavs first time, and then Miami)

The reality is that lebron has a Big 3 of premium scorers, so why isn't HIS team the one with goat-level offense?... again - insufficient teamwork.. specifically, every teammate saw their assists go down alongside lebron - so the team ranks low in assists and teamwork, and needs super-team talent to get to the finals each year. He has abnormally-high time of possession for a forward so his teammates had less time, and consequently, every teammate saw their assists go down alongside lebron - so the team ranks low in assists and teamwork, and needs super-team talent to win. Here's the stats showing lower teammate assists, and therefore lower team assists. I've put Jordan with and without Pippen below for reference.

APG, Assist %
Wade before Lebron (04'-10'):..... 6.6, 34.8%
Wade with... Lebron (11'-14'):..... 4.7, 25.5%

Irving before Lebron (12'-14'):.... 5.8, 33.2%
Irving with... Lebron.. (15'-17'):.. 5.3, 27.1%

Bosh before Lebron (04'-10'):...... 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh with... Lebron (11'-14'):...... 1.6, 8.0%

Love before Lebron (09'-14'):...... 2.5, 13.0%
Love with ...Lebron (15'-17'):...... 2.2, 11.0%

Mo Will before Lebron (05'-08'):.. 5.7, 30.2%
Mo Will with... Lebron (09'-10'):.. 4.6, 22.3%

Pippen with... Jordan 91'-93':...... 6.5, 24.5%
Pippen w/out Jordan 94'-95':...... 5.4, 23.7%
Pippen with... Jordan 96'-98':...... 5.8, 25.1%

Every key teammate had lower assists alongside Lebron:

So Lebron's teams more often than not rank low in APG:

Bulls 1986:. 19th...................................... Cavs 2005:. 6th
Bulls 1987:. 12th...................................... Cavs 2006:. 24th
Bulls 1988:. 9th....................................... Cavs 2007:. 15th
Bulls 1989:. 6th....................................... Cavs 2008:. 25th
Bulls 1990:. 7th....................................... Cavs 2009:. 20th
Bulls 1991:. 4th....................................... Cavs 2010:. 6th
Bulls 1992:. 3rd....................................... Heat 2011:. 26th
Bulls 1993:. 6th....................................... Heat 2012:. 21st
Bulls 1996:. 5th....................................... Heat 2013:. 7th
Bulls 1997:. 2nd...................................... Heat 2014:. 11th
Bulls 1998:. 7th....................................... Cavs 2015:. 10th
__________________________..................______ _____________________
7.7 average rank for MJ's teams..... 14.8 average rank for Lebron's teams

By reducing his team's APG and teamwork, Lebron needs excessive supporting talent to win (aka team-hopping) and people want to give Kyrie flack for wanting to leave? How many other players other than Wilt have shot 71% with 40+ points in the finals? Answer: Only Kryie

WHY HIGH ASSIST RANKINGS MATTER - without high assists it's impossible to play a high BRAND OF BASKETBALL, which is needed by nearly every championship team (except super-teams with enough talent to offset lesser teamwork)

The Cavs in LeBron's first stint were not a title contending team, playoff team, yes. But, most of those teams weren't championship worthy teams. That team that made The Finals in '07 was LeBron and a bunch of role players; looking back on it, it's remarkable that team made that far. Like I said, I love Kyrie, he's a great player, but he's never led a team to any kind of success by himself, LeBron has. That's fact, not being a homer. That Cavs team in 2007 had no business making the NBA Finals, but LeBron's talent carried them to that point.

Plus, the only great team the Warriors played in the playoffs in 2016 was the Thunder. The Rockets were a very weak team and the Blazers were an above average team. And, the Warriors beat them both in 5 games respectively. So, most of the teams they played weren't world beaters just because they play in the same conference as the Warriors doesn't mean they're always better.

What do you want the NBA to do about superteams?
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Old 07-30-2017, 04:07 PM
 
10 posts, read 6,475 times
Reputation: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by QCongress83216 View Post
The Cavs in LeBron's first stint were not a title contending team, playoff team, yes. But, most of those teams weren't championship worthy teams. That team that made The Finals in '07 was LeBron and a bunch of role players; looking back on it, it's remarkable that team made that far. Like I said, I love Kyrie, he's a great player, but he's never led a team to any kind of success by himself, LeBron has. That's fact, not being a homer. That Cavs team in 2007 had no business making the NBA Finals, but LeBron's talent carried them to that point.

Plus, the only great team the Warriors played in the playoffs in 2016 was the Thunder. The Rockets were a very weak team and the Blazers were an above average team. And, the Warriors beat them both in 5 games respectively. So, most of the teams they played weren't world beaters just because they play in the same conference as the Warriors doesn't mean they're always better.

What do you want the NBA to do about superteams?
No, they were not a title contending team but as you pointed lebron didn't make the finals until 2007. Kryie only played 3 seasons on the Cavs before Lebron joined, so he never had a chance to lead the team to success. You may have forgot that Lebron when he joined the Cavs in 2003, he already had all-star Z on the team. Despite that, Lebron didn't even make the playoffs his first two season on the Cavs. What all-star was on the team when Kyrie joined? And you want to neg him for not leading Cavs to the finals his first 3 years, when his opponent is Lebron who had to conspire to play with Wade and Bosh, who were the 2nd and 4th best players in the league in 2010?

Not everyone can be as good as MJ and make it to the playoffs as a rookie with no all-stars on their team during their rookie year. Not sure why you are trying to hold Kyrie to a higher standard than Lebron, and to an MJ level standard? By not including all the facts, and only mentioning one fact with little context, you could be mistaken for a homer so I encourage you to mention all the facts, not just the ones to try and support your argument.

So now that we've cleared up the fact that Lebron and Kryie BOTH never led their team to success their first 3 years in the league (neither got to the finals their first 3 years in the league) we can address the conference that lebron has played in.

Lebron plays in the historically weak eastern conference. Always has. He needs to be on the most stacked team in this weaker conference in order to make it to the finals, save for 2007 which you pointed out was a cake walk for the Cavs in the playoffs.

The warriors won 73 regular season games. They had to come back from being down 3-1 in the WCF. Lebron and the Cavs had a cake walk rg, and post season. By the time game 5 of the 2016 finals came, the warriors were running on fumes and had nothing left. Had the cavs gone through the same thing the warriors went through in the west, they would not have done any better. Instead, the Cavs played a team that was running on fumes in games 5-7.

What do I want the NBA to do about superteams? To not allow it. This is a weak watered down era for basketball. Big men are not being utilized how they used to, you can't play any defense on the perimeter players without getting a foul called on you. I already got to experience watching real ball and the real GOAT MJ play live. Not to mention watching a guy like Kobe kick the most dominant peak player to ever play the game (shaq) off the team only to win not once, but twice.

Wins/loss in sports mean nothing without context.
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Old 07-30-2017, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, OH
1,881 posts, read 1,420,486 times
Reputation: 1287
Quote:
Originally Posted by anhydride View Post
No, they were not a title contending team but as you pointed lebron didn't make the finals until 2007. Kryie only played 3 seasons on the Cavs before Lebron joined, so he never had a chance to lead the team to success. You may have forgot that Lebron when he joined the Cavs in 2003, he already had all-star Z on the team. Despite that, Lebron didn't even make the playoffs his first two season on the Cavs. What all-star was on the team when Kyrie joined? And you want to neg him for not leading Cavs to the finals his first 3 years, when his opponent is Lebron who had to conspire to play with Wade and Bosh, who were the 2nd and 4th best players in the league in 2010?

Not everyone can be as good as MJ and make it to the playoffs as a rookie with no all-stars on their team during their rookie year. Not sure why you are trying to hold Kyrie to a higher standard than Lebron, and to an MJ level standard? By not including all the facts, and only mentioning one fact with little context, you could be mistaken for a homer so I encourage you to mention all the facts, not just the ones to try and support your argument.

So now that we've cleared up the fact that Lebron and Kryie BOTH never led their team to success their first 3 years in the league (neither got to the finals their first 3 years in the league) we can address the conference that lebron has played in.

Lebron plays in the historically weak eastern conference. Always has. He needs to be on the most stacked team in this weaker conference in order to make it to the finals, save for 2007 which you pointed out was a cake walk for the Cavs in the playoffs.

The warriors won 73 regular season games. They had to come back from being down 3-1 in the WCF. Lebron and the Cavs had a cake walk rg, and post season. By the time game 5 of the 2016 finals came, the warriors were running on fumes and had nothing left. Had the cavs gone through the same thing the warriors went through in the west, they would not have done any better. Instead, the Cavs played a team that was running on fumes in games 5-7.

What do I want the NBA to do about superteams? To not allow it. This is a weak watered down era for basketball. Big men are not being utilized how they used to, you can't play any defense on the perimeter players without getting a foul called on you. I already got to experience watching real ball and the real GOAT MJ play live. Not to mention watching a guy like Kobe kick the most dominant peak player to ever play the game (shaq) off the team only to win not once, but twice.

Wins/loss in sports mean nothing without context.

You got it wrong, I'm not downing Kyrie for not being successful in his first 3 years. But, I am saying that he didn't lead a team to a successful season before LeBron came back. Maybe he might've figured it out in his 4th year if LBJ hadn't returned, who knows. Yes, LeBron didn't make the playoffs in his first 2 years in the NBA, but Z was entering the twilight of his career, and I'm not saying that as a knock on him at all. Also, MJ didn't make the playoffs in his rookie year, he made it in his 3rd year because the Bulls were terrible and his 2nd year he missed that season due to injury.

The Warriors didn't go through a six or seven-game series in the 1st two rounds in 2016. It's not like they played the Grizzlies, Clippers or the Spurs the 1st two rounds. Plus, they were up I 3-1, they just had to get one more win to seal the greatest regular season in history, and the last two out of three games were in their building. Steph and Iggy were out there playing so they weren't injured. They couldn't run on fumes for one more game to close the deal? Cavs didn't have a cake walk during the regular season because they had replaced their coach midseason, now they had it easier in the playoffs I agree with you on that. But, in sports most people don't care about the context just the story and how it ended, even though you do. Nobody care that the Cubs beat a depleted Indians team last year all the media cares about is the Cubs broke their 100-plus year World Series title drought. Just like the media talked about Cleveland finally breaking its 50-plus year title drought after the Cavs won. Which teams are you a fan of? Did you look into context when they won a championship?

I also agree with you that the NBA doesn't utilize the center anymore. They need to get back to that, that'll make the game more diverse instead of it being so perimeter heavy. And, it does seem that you can't guard these perimeter players without getting a foul called. I still think that was a punk move for Kobe to get Shaq off the team. Yeah, he won a couple more without him, but if they would've stayed together he and Shaq would've probably went on another three-peat. You would take Shaq over Bynum and Gasol any day, not to say they wasn't great but Shaq was the better overall player.
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Old 07-30-2017, 10:53 PM
 
10 posts, read 6,475 times
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MJ was drafted to the Bulls in 1984.
He played in the 84-85 season his rookie year, and led them to the playoffs losing to the Bucks in the 1985 playoffs, did he not? 29ppg

https://www.basketball-reference.com...-vs-bucks.html

Kobe wanted to form his own legacy and prove that he could win without Shaq.

I always look at context in sports. Team A beat team B is kind of an elementary way to view something, even if it is what the majority does.

Did you see Pippen's comments on the Kyrie situation? I can't say that Pippen's is wrong in what he's saying.

Scottie Pippen has Kyrie Irving’s back | ProBasketballTalk
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Old 07-30-2017, 11:14 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, OH
1,881 posts, read 1,420,486 times
Reputation: 1287
Quote:
Originally Posted by anhydride View Post
MJ was drafted to the Bulls in 1984.
He played in the 84-85 season his rookie year, and led them to the playoffs losing to the Bucks in the 1985 playoffs, did he not? 29ppg

https://www.basketball-reference.com...-vs-bucks.html

Kobe wanted to form his own legacy and prove that he could win without Shaq.

I always look at context in sports. Team A beat team B is kind of an elementary way to view something, even if it is what the majority does.

Did you see Pippen's comments on the Kyrie situation? I can't say that Pippen's is wrong in what he's saying.

Scottie Pippen has Kyrie Irving’s back | ProBasketballTalk

OK I stand corrected on MJ.

You say into the context of sports. Would you do the same thing if your favorite team won the championship?

If Kyrie wants to win without LeBron he has to change some things about his game. He has to get a few more assists and be more team first. He's a score first point guard like Westbrook, Isiah Thomas, Lillard and John Wall and he has to be a better defender meaning make a commitment to the defensive end. Even Kobe had to change some things in his game like adding a post move. I saw Pippen's comments on "The Jump."
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Old 07-31-2017, 01:08 PM
 
10 posts, read 6,475 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QCongress83216 View Post
OK I stand corrected on MJ.

You say into the context of sports. Would you do the same thing if your favorite team won the championship?

If Kyrie wants to win without LeBron he has to change some things about his game. He has to get a few more assists and be more team first. He's a score first point guard like Westbrook, Isiah Thomas, Lillard and John Wall and he has to be a better defender meaning make a commitment to the defensive end. Even Kobe had to change some things in his game like adding a post move. I saw Pippen's comments on "The Jump."
The Cavs are my favorite team, so I apply context to everything. I can't just pretend that they beat a fully healthy 73 win team like most in my social circles do. I just wished lebron would have played both sides of the ball in 2017 finals and that Kyrie was a better defender to begin with. I don't condone burning his jersey when he played a big part in getting that championship delivered.

I've been watching them since the Richfield coliseum days. I agree with you about what Kryie needs to do, but he could find his way onto a stacked team also.
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