What Are the Things That Clevelanders Take for Granted? (Lakewood: apartment, leasing)
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Is this what you're talking about me generalizing? "but it's the best option available to most Americans, including most Clevelanders"
That's undoubtedly true.
Again, I disagree, because you're generalizing: you're saying that driving a car in a city is the "best option" which presumes it is in all situations. Sure it is, if you live in, say, Shaker and work in Solon; I'm down with that. But if you live in Shaker, Beachwood, University Heights, or even Lyndhurst, you won't convince me that driving is the "best option" if you work downtown and, generally, come home from downtown most evenings (sure, things like day care in a 3rd location or working a second job in, say Valley View, Parma or Newburgh Heights is different whereby driving would be the "best option"), but I'm not assuming that's the case with all people working downtown. And, again, I don't even think driving is the "best option" for folks convenient to a Rapid station heading into the center of town most summer weekends, esp when there's an Indians, Cavs or Browns game (in many cases, 2 of those teams are playing the same night)... It's a madhouse driving down there and traffic cops are deployed everywhere.
Cars are great ... have one, myself. But one size does not fit all in terms of moving about in an urban environment.
It probably should not be that way, and I'd vote for transit improvements all day long, but that's just the way it is today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferraris
Sure, there's definitely situations where using transit is the most attractive option. I don't understand what you're getting at here? You could just as easily come up with hypothetical trips where driving is a much more attractive option. I'd say for the majority of A to B trips and commutes in the metro, driving is the most attractive option. Again, it shouldn't be that way, but it is. This is evidenced by people's commuting choices.
I would agree with your statement (that I bolded). For the majority of my trips, a car is the best option: that includes, going to the cleaners, going to the supermarket, going to a friends house or a movie (at a non-downtown theater), etc, etc, etc. We're talking apples and oranges here and this is a straw man argument... From the gist of your comments, using transit is never, or almost never, a viable option ... for any trips, and I just refuse to believe that. It sounds like a talking point straight straight from GM/Koch Brothers/(too many) Republicans, Tea Partiers, etc, etc; and if falls right into overarching theme of this thread: things that Clevelander's take for granted and, to me, mass transit, particularly the Rapid, ranks very high on that list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferraris
If I worked downtown I'd absolutely use the rapid.
Bingo! Maybe where getting somewhere... no pun intended.
We're talking apples and oranges here and this is a straw man argument... From the gist of your comments, using transit is never, or almost never, a viable option ... for any trips, and I just refuse to believe that.
Yep, I think we just misunderstood each other.
If you work downtown, and live on or near a bus or rail line, then transit is quite possibly the better option. My intent was not to complain about RTA, but rather how so many jobs are sprawled around the metro, which makes driving the best option. Most people don't have the fortunate combination of a house and a job that are both on or near transit without unreasonable transfers.
Sure, I live in Shaker and work in Beachwood, so I could complain about the Rapids or the 14 not extending far enough east to hit my office's area. But my real complaint is that my employer located in a suburban office park in the first place.
I think there is a legit point that many employers aren't downtown, including some pretty notable ones (Progressive). Sometimes that is kinda the city's fault too though.
Clevelanders that work downtown though also have a tendency to drive in. This is evident by looking at all those lovely surface parking lots and whatnot down there. Maybe non of them live near a line? Possibly. Clevelanders also need to repopulate the urban areas, and thus be closer to bus and rapid lines. But a large amount of the urban area, as of now, is really not an option for people who value safety and education. Sad, but true.
That all being said, just anecdotally, I think even most Clevelanders in relatively close-in urban areas typically drive most everywhere. I have friends living off Fairmount near Shaker Lakes. Always drive downtown. Rapid is a few blocks away. No matter.
That, to a degree, I will agree with even though downtown Cleveland is still the largest employment center in the state with over 100K jobs there -- and growing, slightly. Regional planning has been a mess in Cleveland which has created sprawl... The soon-to-be-outgoing GM of RTA, Joe Calabrese, recently comment how he cringed that Tri-C recently created a Westlake branch that's not accessible to any RTA line, bus, Rapid, BRT ... nothing. I couldn't agree more. The car first/freeway first mentality of our so-called planners is not only hurting transit, but hurting Greater Cleveland's normal or preferable growth as a walkable, urban area. Fortunately this is changing ... a little bit. There is a somewhat movement of jobs back into downtown as well as significant TOD growth near a few Rapid stations, such as UC-Little Italy, Van Aken and even Flats East Bank, which is a good thing.
While the Edgewater neighborhood does have some of Cleveland's nicer housing stock, as well as easy access to Edgewater Park, I personally find the area to be relatively sleepy in terms of things to do, compared to the North Side Chicago neighborhoods I used to frequent, and even compared to the several other Cleveland neighborhoods you mentioned above. It might be a nice place to live, but other than Edgewater Park and its views of downtown, there is rather little there for tourists.
I guess I see it differently. For one thing, even though there's not one raucous strip of bars, restaurants and night spots, there are pockets of activity along Clifton, and even more to the south on that short stretch Detroit from W. 110th to W.117, including the famed Brothers night club... But I look for more in an attractive urban neighborhood than just places to sit on your arse to eat and drink. And the corner of the neighborhood bordering Lakewood, along W. 117, has a newer mix of stores with the bustling Lucky's supermarket meshed with the Chipotle's and the other bars, like the old Tick-Tock Tavern. The vibe is laid back, but vital; gay friendly and otherwise highly diverse, racially, ethnically and income-wise...
For me, I can just wander the streets looking at interesting, diverse architecture... and people. Egdewater, with its mix of Victorian woodframe homes to interesting brick walk-ups, with some row/terrace homes thrown in -- with a couple modern mid-rise apt complex-s thrown in -- and then the gorgeous mansions along Edgwater, Harbor Ct and, to a lesser degree, Lake Ave, is serious eye candy...
... and of course, with all that, you've got the amazing Beach on one end (with the fabulous new Metroparks beach house -- which actually features a bar upstairs) and handsome high-rises of Lakewood's Gold Coast, on the other... If I were a visitor to Cleveland, a neighborhood like Edgewater would be high on my list -- and I absolutely think Edgewater beats West Park/Kamm's Corner easily.
The car first/freeway first mentality of our so-called planners is not only hurting transit, but hurting Greater Cleveland's normal or preferable growth as a walkable, urban area. Fortunately this is changing ... a little bit. There is a somewhat movement of jobs back into downtown as well as significant TOD growth near a few Rapid stations, such as UC-Little Italy, Van Aken and even Flats East Bank, which is a good thing.
I do hope that it continues to change.
The bolded is basically what I was getting at. When the overwhelming majority of infrastructure around you is set up primarily to accommodate cars, it's hard to not adopt the "car-first" mentality in practice, even if you disagree with it in principle.
Location: Cleveland, OH USA / formerly Chicago for 20 years
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf
I guess I see it differently. For one thing, even though there's not one raucous strip of bars, restaurants and night spots, there are pockets of activity along Clifton, and even more to the south on that short stretch Detroit from W. 110th to W.117, including the famed Brothers night club... But I look for more in an attractive urban neighborhood than just places to sit on your arse to eat and drink. And the corner of the neighborhood bordering Lakewood, along W. 117, has a newer mix of stores with the bustling Lucky's supermarket meshed with the Chipotle's and the other bars, like the old Tick-Tock Tavern. The vibe is laid back, but vital; gay friendly and otherwise highly diverse, racially, ethnically and income-wise...
For me, I can just wander the streets looking at interesting, diverse architecture... and people. Egdewater, with its mix of Victorian woodframe homes to interesting brick walk-ups, with some row/terrace homes thrown in -- with a couple modern mid-rise apt complex-s thrown in -- and then the gorgeous mansions along Edgwater, Harbor Ct and, to a lesser degree, Lake Ave, is serious eye candy...
... and of course, with all that, you've got the amazing Beach on one end (with the fabulous new Metroparks beach house -- which actually features a bar upstairs) and handsome high-rises of Lakewood's Gold Coast, on the other... If I were a visitor to Cleveland, a neighborhood like Edgewater would be high on my list -- and I absolutely think Edgewater beats West Park/Kamm's Corner easily.
I lived within throwing distance of West 117th/Clifton for twelve years -- ten of those years right on the Gold Coast. This was the period 1983-1995 and I loved the area then. Upon moving back a few years ago, however, I found the area has lost much of its appeal to me. It seemed to have declined substantially -- a huge piece of vacant land where the supermarket used to be, with a beautiful old church building behind it having been vacant for years and rotting away... The Clifton Web was gone... Big Fun was gone (I never got to see the Clifton location)... It's It Deli was gone... some of my favorite restaurants that remained (e.g., Papa Nick's) seemed to have gotten too expensive... the list goes on. Now with the new Lucky's market, Landmark restaurant and some others, the area seems to be getting new life. But when I ate at the new Chipotle, sitting in the front-window counter to peoplewatch, I found the lack of foot traffic depressing. Downtown Lakewood is not very far away, and it seems so much more exciting these days than this area does. Perhaps it's that contrast that's getting to me.
I lived within throwing distance of West 117th/Clifton for twelve years -- ten of those years right on the Gold Coast. This was the period 1983-1995 and I loved the area then. Upon moving back a few years ago, however, I found the area has lost much of its appeal to me. It seemed to have declined substantially -- a huge piece of vacant land where the supermarket used to be, with a beautiful old church building behind it having been vacant for years and rotting away... The Clifton Web was gone... Big Fun was gone (I never got to see the Clifton location)... It's It Deli was gone... some of my favorite restaurants that remained (e.g., Papa Nick's) seemed to have gotten too expensive... the list goes on. Now with the new Lucky's market, Landmark restaurant and some others, the area seems to be getting new life. But when I ate at the new Chipotle, sitting in the front-window counter to peoplewatch, I found the lack of foot traffic depressing. Downtown Lakewood is not very far away, and it seems so much more exciting these days than this area does. Perhaps it's that contrast that's getting to me.
I hated to see the beautiful old Christian Science Church torn down, too... it was an architectural landmark; but, for decades after its congregation abandoned the building, it was a vacant white elephant no one wanted to use. All that vacant land where it was, though, is being redeveloped into high end town homes. And as I noted, they're in the midst of redevelopment at the W. 117-Clifton corner: stay tuned...
To me, downtown Lakewood and Edgewater are apples and oranges. They each have their own appeals, but are very different. I stand by my believe, though, that Edgewater is one of the most attractive neighborhoods in Cleveland on many levels. It is one of the few West Side neighborhoods, outside of Ohio City, where I'd be comfortable moving.
Where exactly is "Downtown Lakewood"? Lakewood seems to have several "main streets" with Detroit, Madison, and W 117th, rather than a centralized core.
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