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Old 09-15-2018, 03:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
It's a nice idea in theory, but not practical in terms of reality. In both cases you're talking about extending a heavy rail rapid transit line -- the most expensive mass transit line to build and maintain -- 25+ miles outside downtown. In this country, only the DC Metro and SF's BART have lines like this -- and both of these cities have among the densest core cities -- both small, but very dense -- along with dense suburban tracts surrounding them. Cleveland just isn't that city, and never was. I believe Cleveland, as a moderate density city is fortunate to have the rail it does although I realize, that when the Rapid was built, Cleveland's population's peaked at around 914K which, considering the city's rather modest 77 square mile size, meant it had a whopping density of around 11,800 residents per square mile -- the current 388K population weighs in at just over 5,000/square mile. Even still, aside from the lower Hough/Euclid corridor to University Circle, which had a number of, now long-gone apartment complexes, Cleveland was always a core wood-frame house on generous lots with driveways between each. There were/are a ton of those Cleveland Double 2-family houses the line neighborhoods and small brick walk-ups dotting some of the streets.

Cleveland best hope for that length of rail service is commuter rail -- diesel powered trains -- probably double-decker push pull engine sets mainly running during rush hours. That's the only deep penetrating rail extension that makes sense, not rapid transit. And even with commuter rail, here, you have the obstacles of the surrounding counties not ponying up for subsidy, a backwards/conservative Republican legislature that won't fund transit and commercial freight carriers that won't allow the commuter trains to share their rails -- usually ******ing about the cost of insurance for such service.

There are still more modest inside Cuyahoga County extensions worth exploring -- ie LRT to Parma, primarily surface, in-street (though perhaps segregated from autos) down W. 25th and Pearl. Even with the so-called CSU BRT, a rail extension from the Red Line at West Boulevard westward into very dense Lakewood along the Norfolk Southern line makes sense. And then perhaps a Red Line extension to the old Euclid Square shopping center and a Blue Line link from Van Aken/Warrensville to North Randall -- both destinations are now hosting high-employment Amazon engagement centers.
RTA was created, in part, to extend rail throughout the county. That never happened and unless there is huge population growth, it won't happen at all. Pretty sure the Blue Line extension beyond as the ROW may have been sacrificed in building the new Van Aken Center.
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Old 09-15-2018, 08:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamms View Post
Pretty sure the Blue Line extension beyond as the ROW may have been sacrificed in building the new Van Aken Center.
Yep, apparently outgoing RTA GM, Joe Calabrese, foolishly conceded to Van Aken District developers to build a parking garage blocking the potential ROW with no provision for Blue Line track extension... Only in Cleveland.
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Old 09-15-2018, 11:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamms View Post
RTA was created, in part, to extend rail throughout the county. That never happened and unless there is huge population growth, it won't happen at all. Pretty sure the Blue Line extension beyond as the ROW may have been sacrificed in building the new Van Aken Center.
Given the city's transit dysfunction since the subway killing, on top of its moderate density and given that RTA was created during the height of the city's corporation defections and accelerated population decline, the idea of a county-wide rail network was likely lip service to get voter buy-in for passage of RTA in the mid-70s. I do think one great, tangible opportunity for a game-changing rail extension was the Dual Hub subway plan in the 90s that was ticketed for green-lighting under the Clinton administration except that, as usual, local leaders had their thumbs up their collective arses and, as result, Dual-Hub failed and we instead have the much lesser and slower Health Line BRT.

Last edited by TheProf; 09-16-2018 at 12:26 AM..
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Old 09-16-2018, 01:20 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamms View Post
Again, if the topic is RTA extending buses and rapids into Lake or Medina counties for example, then those counties would have to pay for the RTA services.

I didn't' ask the question, someone else did: Why doesn't RTA extend bus and rapid transit service to Lake or Medina counties; answer: those counties would have to pay for RTA.

Why didn't you just respond to the original post about this if you're confused by my response?
Just to reiterate, if you knew that there already was a substantial bus service from Lake County to Cleveland and Cuyahoga County, why didn't you just say so??? Instead, you said without qualification that Lake County was unwilling to pay for bus service into Cleveland and eastern Cuyahoga County, which obviously is an incorrect statement.

And my response in 114 explained in detail the bus services from Lake County to Cleveland and eastern Cuyahoga County, responding to both post 110 and your comment in post 112, which you had posted before I had read post 110.

In my mind, you had posted a very poor and actually incorrect explanation to the question asked in post 110.
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Old 09-16-2018, 01:33 AM
 
11,610 posts, read 10,339,430 times
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Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
It's ridiculous to say the multimodal transportation center on Lake Erie would be a failure without having any facts to back it up.
I never said the multimodal transportation center on Lake Erie would be a failure.

What I did say is that dropping Laketran passengers off at that center, where they would have to transfer to another bus/trolley/Waterfront Line, etc., to get to their final destination, could slow down their trip/commute to downtown given the direct loops already supplied by Laketran.

Perhaps all or some Laketran buses could make a stop at the intermodal center, giving Laketran passengers transportation options not currently available to them. This still would slow the trips of passengers already well served by the current Laketran loops.

Candidly, I would rather see Laketran bus service directly to Windermere/Louis Stokes, where passengers could transfer directly to the Healthline or the Red Line. Currently, Laketran passengers only can get to Windermere by taking buses to Shoregate and then taking a 39 RTA bus providing bus service to Windermere, very time consuming and indirect for Laketran passengers not living near Shoregate.

Going to a lakefront intermodal center to gain access to the Healthline for a trip University Circle or the Cleveland Clinic would be much more time consuming, as passengers would have to backtrack if coming from Lake County.

Laketran Dial-a-Ride services to University Circle technically are only for medical services, and Laketran requests the name and phone number of the doctor at the time the Dial-a-Ride reservation is made. Dial-a-Ride reservations also must be booked at least a couple days in advance.

My memory is that Laketran currently does not provide scheduled bus service to University Circle except for a transfer to an RTA 39 bus. So currently Laketran passengers would have to backtrack using the Healthline or Red Line if the Shoregate/RTA 39 option was more inconvenient or slower, which it would be for passengers using Laketran park 'n ride buses to get downtown.
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Old 09-16-2018, 09:03 AM
 
4,823 posts, read 4,918,376 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
Just to reiterate, if you knew that there already was a substantial bus service from Lake County to Cleveland and Cuyahoga County, why didn't you just say so??? Instead, you said without qualification that Lake County was unwilling to pay for bus service into Cleveland and eastern Cuyahoga County, which obviously is an incorrect statement.

And my response in 114 explained in detail the bus services from Lake County to Cleveland and eastern Cuyahoga County, responding to both post 110 and your comment in post 112, which you had posted before I had read post 110.

In my mind, you had posted a very poor and actually incorrect explanation to the question asked in post 110.

As it relates to RTA, like the question asked. The thread relates to RTA...to use one of your favorites...please.

Is LakeTran RTA? No.

Btw, there are counties around Cuyahoga other than Lake.

One thing riders on a bus from Mentor want is to meander over to the Windermere Station and take the BNSRAT (Bus Not So Rapid Anymore Transit).

Someone has an active, yet out of touch, imagination.

Last edited by Kamms; 09-16-2018 at 09:49 AM..
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Old 09-16-2018, 09:05 AM
 
4,823 posts, read 4,918,376 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
I never said the multimodal transportation center on Lake Erie would be a failure.

What I did say is that dropping Laketran passengers off at that center, where they would have to transfer to another bus/trolley/Waterfront Line, etc., to get to their final destination, could slow down their trip/commute to downtown given the direct loops already supplied by Laketran.

Perhaps all or some Laketran buses could make a stop at the intermodal center, giving Laketran passengers transportation options not currently available to them. This still would slow the trips of passengers already well served by the current Laketran loops.

Candidly, I would rather see Laketran bus service directly to Windermere/Louis Stokes, where passengers could transfer directly to the Healthline or the Red Line. Currently, Laketran passengers only can get to Windermere by taking buses to Shoregate and then taking a 39 RTA bus providing bus service to Windermere, very time consuming and indirect for Laketran passengers not living near Shoregate.

Going to a lakefront intermodal center to gain access to the Healthline for a trip University Circle or the Cleveland Clinic would be much more time consuming, as passengers would have to backtrack if coming from Lake County.

Laketran Dial-a-Ride services to University Circle technically are only for medical services, and Laketran requests the name and phone number of the doctor at the time the Dial-a-Ride reservation is made. Dial-a-Ride reservations also must be booked at least a couple days in advance.

My memory is that Laketran currently does not provide scheduled bus service to University Circle except for a transfer to an RTA 39 bus. So currently Laketran passengers would have to backtrack using the Healthline or Red Line if the Shoregate/RTA 39 option was more inconvenient or slower, which it would be for passengers using Laketran park 'n ride buses to get downtown.
Uh, the topic is RTA, not LakeTran.

Yep, just checked the thread topic "RTA: What's Good, Bad, and Improvable"; no mention of LakeTran at all. Talk about hijacking a thread. Open a thread on LakeTran ; it's sure to be a fascinating discussion.

Last edited by Kamms; 09-16-2018 at 09:16 AM..
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Old 09-16-2018, 09:37 AM
 
4,823 posts, read 4,918,376 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
Given the city's transit dysfunction since the subway killing, on top of its moderate density and given that RTA was created during the height of the city's corporation defections and accelerated population decline, the idea of a county-wide rail network was likely lip service to get voter buy-in for passage of RTA in the mid-70s. I do think one great, tangible opportunity for a game-changing rail extension was the Dual Hub subway plan in the 90s that was ticketed for green-lighting under the Clinton administration except that, as usual, local leaders had their thumbs up their collective arses and, as result, Dual-Hub failed and we instead have the much lesser and slower Health Line BRT.
The underlying point was that the voters decided to build a subway and, later, create the RTA for, among other things, building a county wide rail system. Let's not forget about the '70s People Mover. This was ready to go as well with Fed $$. Thanks to ''planners'' liike Norm Krumholz, that project tanked.

Clevelanders were at one time transit progressive; sadly the ''experts'' in leadership roles weren't.

As I stated, if Cleveland had the subway and an expanded rail system, the decline may have been tempered and the recovery would have actually started.

Dual-Hub, as you know, was a long dreamed of project to transit-link UC-Downtown in a quick and efficient manner. Big story in the '80s. Another doomed subway project that couldn't even eventually land an expansion of existing light-rail lines. Cleveland now has what I call BNSRAT or BRT really lite. The award winning, model for the nation, Euclid Avenue BRT was nice while it lasted, but this being Cleveland, you knew it wasn't going to last.

Wonder when RTA is going to recoup its $1 million+ that George Dixon stole, I mean George Dixon III (doesn't that look impressive on a resume?) the former RTA Board of Trustees President? Not gonna happen.

Dixon III got over on the RTA for health insurance premiums. Taking a look at the size of this guy, a walking health bomb, maybe RTA cut its losses when he resigned.

Perhaps another Cleveland pol like councilman Ken Johnson will vie for this seat. Somehow a ''Reverend'' with an empty resume is on the Board of Trustees. That's how Cleveland works as it struggles to figure ''what's wrong with Cleveland'' the past 50 years or so.

Last edited by Kamms; 09-16-2018 at 09:48 AM..
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Old 09-16-2018, 01:18 PM
 
11,610 posts, read 10,339,430 times
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Originally Posted by Kamms View Post
One thing riders on a bus from Mentor want is to meander over to the Windermere Station and take the BNSRAT (Bus Not So Rapid Anymore Transit).
If they're working in University Circle, or want to visit there, that's exactly what they would want as it would be much faster than backtracking from downtown, the only option currently available. Direct service to University Circle would be a superior option.

Admittedly for persons working downtown, the current LakeTran routes are the best. It would be great if Laketran would run smaller buses on a University Circle loop from Eastlake's park 'n ride/station, perhaps especially on weekends.
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Old 09-16-2018, 01:22 PM
 
11,610 posts, read 10,339,430 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamms View Post
As it relates to RTA, like the question asked. Is LakeTran RTA? No.

Btw, there are counties around Cuyahoga other than Lake.
Kamms is never wrong, at least by his own admission, if not in his own mind.

Whatever your thinking, or excuse, you strongly inferred if not directly stated, that Lake County wasn't willing to pay for bus service to Cleveland. This was wrong.

If your point was that Lake County wasn't willing to pay for RTA bus service from Lake County to Cleveland because it already was paying for Laketran to provide such service and obviously wouldn't want to pay for a duplicate service, why didn't you just say so???

In any event, you can't deny that your post left a inaccurate impression -- that Lake County wasn't willing to pay for bus service to Cleveland -- and despite your IMO pitiful defense of your statement, I have no apology for correcting the record.
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