RTA: What's good, bad, and improvable (Cleveland, Warren: low cost, vs., vehicles)

[teacherdad]

RTA Pros...

What's the nearest station to Burton, Ohio? My cousin lives near there so I may stay with him in July with a rental car, but will want to park at an RTA station and use a rail pass all week.

Thanks!!!

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by teacherdad

RTA Pros...

What's the nearest station to Burton, Ohio? My cousin lives near there so I may stay with him in July with a rental car, but will want to park at an RTA station and use a rail pass all week.

Thanks!!!

Both the Blue (Van Akan) and Green (Lines) are the closest to Burton. But I would drive to the Green Line terminal. You can get there relatively quickly traveling along rural-ish (and beautiful) Ohio 87 till it turns into South Woodland Rd then at Richmond RD in Beachwood not over North to Shaker Blvd where you can drive dirctly into the huge RTA free parking lot... The Green Line terminal is much easier easier to access than the Blue Line's because, unlike the former, there is much less traffic and zero commercial development there.

[216facts]

Originally Posted by TheProf

It was like that good old days: RTA actually ran Waterfront Line trains ... all evening until the usual 12:15a schedule!! Problem is, the agency did an absolutely horrible job of publicizing it. Sure it was generally known, largely through Cleveland.com RTA ran the entire system free celebrating the Cuyahoga River fire anniversary, but I saw nothing about extending Waterfront Line service into jam-packed Flats East Bank last night.

Yet and still, a number of people who were planning to ride the Trolley back to the Square, hopped WFL trains only because we, stunned, were seeing them running -- and not just that goofy every half-hour frequency to one line, but every 15 minutes with trains serving BOTH lines. We hopped one of the last trains out, and a bunch of folks got on at Flats East Bank and a few at Settlers Landing; most transferred to the Red Line but some of us continued east on the Blue Line (we parked at the excellent new Van Aken District). It worked like a charm. The train was quick and riders were happy...

... Why is this so hard!? Trolley service had long ended, around 11p, and, as often the case with heavy Flats traffic, were caught in traffic down to/up out of the Flats. RTA has done everything to hurt this rail line, it's NOT that people just don't want to use it. And even yesterday, if RTA had only publicized the trains were running and running late (like, maybe, on the RTA website... perhaps), people would have flocked to the trains... Many were frantically calling Uber/Lyft and those ride-share cars were also lined up stuck in traffic...

It's not rocket science folks. We have the gift of a rail line directly serving the most popular, dense, tight, gridlocked entertainment in Ohio... USE IT!!

It would be nice to know the number of riders of the Waterfront Line vs the Trolleys. Since both are publicly funded, we need to get the most bang for our buck. The nice thing about the Trolleys, they can go practically anywhere RTA sees a need. The Waterfront Line is stuck right where its at, and if the clientele do not want to use it - its hard to ask the taxpayer to continue to fund it at high service levels.

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by 216facts

Since both are publicly funded, we need to get the most bang for our buck.

Both service are not funded the same.... The Trolleys are funded additionally by joint self-taxing by downtown businesses, which are why the Trolleys are free.

Originally Posted by 216facts

The nice thing about the Trolleys, they can go practically anywhere RTA sees a need. The Waterfront Line is stuck right where its at, and if the clientele do not want to use it - its hard to ask the taxpayer to continue to fund it at high service levels.

Not sure of your point... The Trolleys and the WFL serve different needs. If you're already downtown and would like to bar hop or tour, or say go from Public Square to Playhouse Sq after riding in on the Rapid, the Trolleys are great. I like the Trolleys and use them from time to time; they can be very useful and are cute. But they are not more convenient for most Rapid riders in outlying areas or the suburbs who are coming into town for the purpose of going to the Flats; this is especially true for those coming in on the Blue and Green Lines from the East Side/Shaker Sq/Shaker Heights or nearby Eastern suburbs, where trains directly serve the Flats -- no transfers required at all. And the WFL is also more convenient going to the Flats for Red Line users who merely cross from one side of Tower City to another...

The jam-packed Flats East Bank, especially on warm weekend nights is an all-encompassing, destination in itself. Cleveland locals, who tend to be a pragmatic bunch, don't hop on a Rapid from near their homes for the purpose of bar-hopping or sightseeing around downtown -- they want to go to the Flats, so all this circulation jazz of the Trolleys does little for these people -- they want to get there quickly, eat, drink/hang out/sightsee the people, pleasure boats, freighters or whatever ... then go home.

If WFL trains are running every 15 minutes, which they originally were running before the Calabrese administration came in with its decidedly anti-rail attitude. (we can talk elsewhere about all the other rapid transit cuts Calabrese made, like ending the traditional all-night New Year's Eve service, which made little sense).

Originally Posted by 216facts

It would be nice to know the number of riders of the Waterfront Line vs the Trolleys.

216, do you think people would ride Trolleys, esp to the Flats, which is what we're talking about, if the a) ran once every 30 minutes and b) riders had to pay the same fares as they do the Rapid? I think not ... I'll say it one more time: RTA officials made the WFL less attractive to riders by ridiculous practices like the half hourly frequency for a 2 mile line (and really a half-mile service when we're talking about Tower City to the Flats). And it's just a known fact: when given a choice, people gravitate more to rail than they do buses. Problem with the WFL, RTA hasn't given riders a choice. They've essentially forced the Trolleys on the public; RTA's choked off train service by making it more inconvenient while running the privately subsidized bus/trolleys in competition and, just as GM did when it killed off streetcars nationally with it's GM-backed National City bus lines convinced the public that they preferred buses when, really, they had no choice. Same deal here in Cleveland on a much smaller scale...

No, I'm not defending the small daytime numbers. At present, there are not enough businesses and activities to attract large numbers during the day, plus there's an over abundance of cheap parking. Still, I'd like to see how even daytime numbers would be IF RTA actually promoted the WFL and offered the 15-minute frequency serving both lines.

Maybe it's the still lingering urban inferiority complex, but Clevelanders have this negative habit of pitting one asset against the other. 3 years ago after the Cavs broke Cleveland's 52-year-jinx of no major local pro team winning a championship and a parade estimated at 1.3M, Browns fans immediately started crowing: if it were the Browns who won the title, there would be double or triple the amount of parade-goers... I ask only one question to stuff like this... why? ... as to the Trolleys and the WFL: why must it be a zero sum game? Why can't the 2 services co-exist and complement each other since they both serve important purposes?

[bjimmy24]

I really think Cleveland can't afford to lose the Waterfront line. The East Bank station is one of the better placed stations in the whole system. I really think the issue is frequency. W 3 and Northcoast are well placed too but of limited utility. But regardless, the optics of losing a rail line would be really bad for the city, at a time when other cities are adding. The good news is that I do think it can easily get better, given that I don't think the RTA administration of the last decade plus could have been much worse.

[j_ws]

On Saturday, with the entire RTA system being free and so many things happening in the Flats, the WFL had pretty decent ridership when I was on it. It was nice to see how it actually is utilized when its schedule lines up with the times people want to use it.

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

I really think Cleveland can't afford to lose the Waterfront line. The East Bank station is one of the better placed stations in the whole system. But regardless, the optics of losing a rail line would be really bad for the city, at a time when other cities are adding. The good news is that I do think it can easily get better, given that I don't think the RTA administration of the last decade plus could have been much worse.

I certainly agree: losing a rail line is the road to killing off other parts of it and more bus service. It's absurd people are even considering ending Waterfront Line service; they just don't understand this...

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

I really think the issue is frequency. W 3 and Northcoast are well placed too but of limited utility.

I absolutely agree with you that the the lack of frequency is one of the biggest drawbacks for people using the WFL. Service should be no less than every 15 minutes. Sure W. 3rd's utility is pretty much limited to Browns games. But I do think E. 9th/North Coast has potential. During the workday there are a number of offices near the station, including the large North Point complex and City Hall. There are other Erieview offices that are also across the street (Lakeside Ave), including the huge Federal building... But on weekends North Coast Harbor has become extremely popular of late, esp during warm months. Many folks are taking advantage of the Nuevo restaurant, recreational activities (paddle boats, the Goodtime III, beach volleyball and other stuff) and just hanging out in the park, even watching those breathtaking Lake Erie sunsets. The parking lot is often full. I'm sure individuals and families would be attracted to the Rapid, again, if both the late evening service was there along with 15-minute frequences... It's a non-scientific fact: kids love trains...

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by TheProf

It's a non-scientific fact: kids love trains...

Highly true. I was indescribably excited to take the rapid as a kid. Heck I still kinda get that feeling sometimes on the rapid going inbound especially at and past Shaker Square, seeing the city come into view and gaining speed.

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

Highly true. I was indescribably excited to take the rapid as a kid. Heck I still kinda get that feeling sometimes on the rapid going inbound especially at and past Shaker Square, seeing the city come into view and gaining speed.

Guess I'm a kid at heart, too. Riding the Rapid downtown with family was an integral part of growing up in Cleveland to me... Only the BIG cities like New York and Chicago were supposed to have that stuff.

[andrew61]

Originally Posted by TheProf

Guess I'm a kid at heart, too. Riding the Rapid downtown with family was an integral part of growing up in Cleveland to me... Only the BIG cities like New York and Chicago were supposed to have that stuff.

I was recently thinking about how much cleaner the Red Line right-of-way is nowadays compared to when I was a kid. I have memories of junk piled high next to the tracks, all along the route. It was like a dumping ground that went on for miles.

I did love riding the Rapid when I was a kid, though. It was a special treat compared to riding the bus. Back when I first rode, Cleveland was still the nation's 8th largest city.