Cleveland Development Discussions (Cincinnati, Akron, Youngstown: 2011, apartment complex, landscaping)

[jam40jeff]

Thanks, 5Lakes, that's pretty much exactly where I was going to go. I thought I'd give WeSoHood a chance to rationalize his argument first, though.

Your Point #1 is one of the big points I have been stressing. The PD kept publishing Dan Gilbert quotes about how we were "burying" hundreds of millions of dollars underground. Other than the fact that the site he (and FCE) support is attached to an underground mall, it makes sense for a convention center to be underground. Convention centers are largely horizontal structures which generate almost no foot traffic directly outside their doors (I guess unless you designed retail into the side if the building). Their footprint is huge and they tend to be large, ugly, windowless structures. So if any building should beplaced underground, it would be a convention center.

[WeSoHood]

Originally Posted by 5Lakes

Agreed. From a planning perspective this is the best location.

1. It's underground so it will not block off the lakefront nor will it create a pedestrian dead zone with a big warehouse type structure.

2. It revitalizes an already existing structure that was setting there doing nothing. This will fix a big dead spot in that area of downtown.

3. It is in the dead center of the city based on the original Burnham plan for Cleveland.

4. It will create pedestrian life going from the convention center to the entertainment districts.

5. It is near both RTA and Amtrak transit links with the potential to create a larger transit hub if Ohio ever gets commuter rail.

1. Exactly, it's underground. It doesn't add any value to the skyline. For something representing the medical aspects of the region, it would have been a perfect opportunity to build something that catches the eye... Oh and the Medical Mart doesn't HAVE to be a warehouse in looks. There were many proposed building styles for the project. For instance, here are New York's proposed plan for their Medical Mart(and our competitor if approved ever):


(yes, I have seen the plain Jane glass structure renderings for Cleveland as well)

2. That's always good.

3. Let's be completely honest, Burnham's plan never panned out. This is a pretty moot point.

4. I'm not sure how this creates much MORE pedestrian life. Surely, the flow will increase some due to the shows and conventions at the Medical Mart, but I'd be the first to admit I was wrong if it actually boosts it greatly.

5. Fair enough... but why is the medical mart THE BEST option considering these resources?

[5Lakes]

Originally Posted by WeSoHood

1. Exactly, it's underground. It doesn't add any value to the skyline. For something representing the medical aspects of the region, it would have been a perfect opportunity to build something that catches the eye... Oh and the Medical Mart doesn't HAVE to be a warehouse in looks. There were many proposed building styles for the project. For instance, here are New York's proposed plan for their Medical Mart(and our competitor if approved ever)

If the Cleveland convention center/med mart was going to be a skyscraper like the New York proposal than that changes things, but all the feasible renderings considered for Cleveland were essentially warehouse type structures. Any convention center I can personally think of is a big warehouse type structure, although that is not saying there are some that are not. It seems to me that such a configuration would be awkward, as convention goers would have to constantly change floors instead of seeing everything on a big exhibition space.

The convention centers in my current city (Chicago) and in a former city (San Diego) are big warehouse type structures that create a barrier to the water fronts and limit the vitality on all sides except the main entrances. This is a point of much criticism regarding these convention centers and I'm glad Cleveland is not making the same mistake.

[jam40jeff]

#1 - The medical mart will be above ground. Only the convention center will be underground.

#5 - I view transit as being a point which makes the Mall site superior, but not quite for the same reasons 5Lakes mentions. The only advantage to the TC site over the Mall site is that the main stop for Rapid trains is the Tower City stop. However, this is slightly less advantageous than many people make it out to be, since the Mall site is served by a Waterfront Line stop, a fact frequently ignored by supporters of the TC site. Beyond the rapid transit, however, I think the Mall site clearly has some big advantageous. It is very close to the Amtrak stop, which could bring many out-of-towners into Cleveland, especially when the Cleveland-Chicago lien is upgraded to a high-speed train running more than once per day. Also, there is no comparison in how much better access there is to the Mall site for trucks.

[andrew0816]

I think that it is great that the convention center is being kept at the mall. The bulkiness is hidden and we get to utilize Public Hall, which is an architectural gem. Not to mention, it is pretty much in the center of downtown and about a 5-10 minute walk to Cleveland Browns Stadium, Tower City, and the Gateway District. And as jam40jeff said, it is served by the water front line and is close to the Amtrak Station. Also, the development opportunities for the area surrounding the area will help Downtown Cleveland become more unified. Good call Cleveland!

[WeSoHood]

Originally Posted by andrew0816

I think that it is great that the convention center is being kept at the mall. The bulkiness is hidden and we get to utilize Public Hall, which is an architectural gem. Not to mention, it is pretty much in the center of downtown and about a 5-10 minute walk to Cleveland Browns Stadium, Tower City, and the Gateway District. And as jam40jeff said, it is served by the water front line and is close to the Amtrak Station. Also, the development opportunities for the area surrounding the area will help Downtown Cleveland become more unified. Good call Cleveland!

I just don't understand how the Medical Mart is going to bring these heaps of people to the Browns Stadium....etc....

[andrew0816]

I never said it would, but if people are here for a convention and they have time to go to a game, they would have easy access. They would also have easy access to other Cleveland amenities, which is one of the points I was trying to make.

[costello_musicman]

Originally Posted by WeSoHood

I just don't understand how the Medical Mart is going to bring these heaps of people to the Browns Stadium....etc....

I think he's refering more to a quality of life aspect in regards to Browns stadium for tourists...since Browns game are all usually sold out. God knows we don't need it to boost attendence.

Either way, both places are just about the same when it comes to walking distance. However, the Mall Site closer to things by a couple blocks. The biggest thing it does is help fill in that gap of pedestrian "deadzone" that somehow exists there, while still keeping a majority of the greenspace.

[jam40jeff]

I agree it won't bring more people to browns games, but it could help the attendance to the Rock Hall and Science Museum.

[costello_musicman]

Some good news on Med Mart:

Crain's Cleveland Business: Marketing of medical merchandise mart concept is under way

http://www.medcitynews.com/index.php/2009/05/medical-conferences-could-come-to-cleveland-a-year-from-now/