Cleveland Development Discussions (Washington, Congress: mortgage, America, MBA)

[WRnative]

Street cars on Detroit and West 25th St. will become more likely once technology allows street cars without conductors.

The existing bus lines are much more economical because they often serve long stretches along Lorain and Detroit, as well as West 25th St. E.g., running a street car line down Detroit would duplicate these services, unless riders would be expected to switch between buses and street cars at the end of the street car line. Building a street car line the entire length of Detroit Ave. now served by buses would be cost prohibitive.

Above all else, RTA is under immense economic duress given the lack of support from Ohio and usage restraints due to low gasoline prices.

[j_ws]

Originally Posted by TheProf

I understand your (and WRNative's) point, but differ somewhat. I think this area is developing considerable density (and we're only seeing the beginning) at the point, as I'll call it, where W. 25 and Detroit converge. It's a much tighter, constricted area than Over-the-Rhine because of the Lake, River and Flats drop off. There are already a slew of buses in this area which is great, but buses, like cars, add to fumes and street congestion. Don't forget, there's a lower deck on the Veteran's Memorial Bridge that carried a streetcar-subway to this location and there's an extant subway station sitting under this intersection -- the other end of the bridge feeds right in next to the rapid transit subway entrance into Tower City where, right now, there's a temporary 2-track rapid station being used while track repair work is being completed at the main Tower City station.

... Yes, Cincinnati's Bell Streetcar was very difficult to build, but Cleveland's pols, while not perfect, seem a bit more enlightened than in Cincy where even the mayor opposed the streetcar. Also the fact that Cleveland already has a functioning, quality rapid-transit system (along with BRT) demonstrates that Cleveland's a bit more savvy transit-wise and, thus, local leaders would likely be more open to such a streetcar expansion. Also both downtown and Ohio City (esp the point and Hingetown) are growing exponentially population-wise (don't forget the giant Westin and nuCLEus projects that are in the final planning stages), so traffic in these areas is going to get much, much worse, so that neither buses or cars will be an adequate solution. It would be wise for Cleveland to plan for this, now.

I wouldn't equate being constricted with density, in this case. It's filling out rapidly with little room to expand, but the fact that Ohio City and the entire near west side are comprised largely of wood frame houses sets them apart from OTR. As far as urban neighborhoods go they have two entirely different vernaculars. I would equate OTR more to what Central was before they destroyed it all to build the innerbelt and then gutted the rest, or maybe Midtown before it lost a lot of it's built environment to surface lots.

I do think the idea of a streetcar is great, I'm just not sure the west side has the economic means or population to justify it. The Bell Connector has a requirement of 3k riders per day and it just goes between downtown and OTR (really, the comparison of CLE's downtown and Central or Midtown is pretty solid). We do have the bridge with the lower deck, but getting that ready is another up-front build cost that Cincinnati didn't have to deal with. Cincy is just linking all of the heavy-hitter companies downtown to a dense urban neighborhood, whereas a Detroit streetcar would be linking downtown to a more decentralized urban neighborhood (I just don't think the densities of OC and OTR are comparable in this scenario).

I feel as if I'm coming off as more critical than intended. I really do like the idea of a streetcar, I just think it's hard to justify one until we do have more new development built, filled, and placing a strain on the existing transit system. Until then, adding such a large amount of new, expensive-to-build capacity seems unlikely.

Originally Posted by WRnative

Street cars on Detroit and West 25th St. will become more likely once technology allows street cars without conductors.

The existing bus lines are much more economical because they often serve long stretches along Lorain and Detroit, as well as West 25th St. E.g., running a street car line down Detroit would duplicate these services, unless riders would be expected to switch between buses and street cars at the end of the street car line. Building a street car line the entire length of Detroit Ave. now served by buses would be cost prohibitive.

Above all else, RTA is under immense economic duress given the lack of support from Ohio and usage restraints due to low gasoline prices.

I think a street car could, in theory (meaning it could justify ridership), work if if shot down Detroit to Lake, then shot up Lake to Clifton and continued into Lakewood. That would be the least intrusive, as I still think it would be an issue removing all street parking from Detroit.

It seems like you'd also run the risk of duplicating segments of the Red Line and Health Line in this scenario, though, which brings me back to just pushing for conversion of BRT to light rail.

However, if there is trouble meeting ridership goals for existing rail, it seems like RTA would have trouble justifying more rail, especially when light rail runs a relatively high risk of missing ridership goals. There are already untapped locations for transit-oriented development at West Blvd/Cudell and Madison/117th. If these areas could be developed as new, denser cores and the Red Line ridership starts to increase I could see more justification for adding heavier East-West transit options.

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by j_ws

I wouldn't equate being constricted with density, in this case. It's filling out rapidly with little room to expand, but the fact that Ohio City and the entire near west side are comprised largely of wood frame houses sets them apart from OTR.

Yes and no. Those wood-frame houses are on small plots with few driveways--unlike most Cleveland neighborhoods, Ohio City has a lot of alleys (and some alleys with stuffed with rear-facing houses fronting them). There are areas of Chicago that have similar-type houses but, still, the neighborhood has high density....There are also several row houses and small apts in Ohio City as well... But the newer construction, like the one in question, are multi-unit apartment buildings; and more is planned. Also there will be more light-industrial-to-loft developments. I'm not looking at what's currently there so much as what's being developed in the future.

Another factor favoring streetcars, esp the streetcar subway, is that W. 25 and Detroit is a major choke point for buses -- I'm guessing about 1/3 to 1/2 of all West Side buses pass through this intersection. With a streetcar/streetcar subway, many buses could terminate at the corner with riders transferring to trains into downtown. A number of rapid transit cities, like Boston, do this to eliminate bus traffic in their tight downtown areas... Again looking at Cleveland's downtown NOW may argue for keeping the status quo. But with the increasing popularity of downtown growing, and with the mega projects like Westin and nuCLEus (as well as the new apts slated for W. 25-Detroit), the potential for serious congestion exists. Off street transit terminals, like Tower City, will become of increasing importance.

[j_ws]

That does make a good case for future growth.

For this system, what type of route are you envisioning west of the intersection and south (assuming you're advocating for lines down both Detroit and W 25th). With these being relatively narrow two-lane streets, with bike lanes, are you thinking parking would be retained with the tracks and traffic integrated into one lane, or would parking be removed allowing the trains some type of exclusive lane at the center of the road?

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by j_ws

That does make a good case for future growth.

For this system, what type of route are you envisioning west of the intersection and south (assuming you're advocating for lines down both Detroit and W 25th). With these being relatively narrow two-lane streets, with bike lanes, are you thinking parking would be retained with the tracks and traffic integrated into one lane, or would parking be removed allowing the trains some type of exclusive lane at the center of the road?

In the long run, I would argue for both, especially extending south along W. 25 then Pearl Rd into Parma, as this corridor, except for the northern end near Lorain, is not served by the Rapid. Also, though, the Detroit corridor into Gordon Square then bending NW along Lake to Edgewater, is a rapidly improving/growing corridor. For both lines I'd follow the plan of the old streetcar, that is, having them both surface not long beyond the W. 25/Detroit subway station. ... if we wanted to get really crazy, we could tunnel south past Lorain surfacing at the Red Line/RR bridges between Gehring and Monroe streets with no cross-street interruption until around Clark where there would be the 3rd stop (after W. 25/Lorain)...

For the Detroit streetcar, I probably would opt to end it at Edgewater park, with a stop serving the Batter Park area. No sense in duplicating the Red Line also streetcars should not be designed for longer distance commuter-like service. They should be, like these, for shorter hops or commutes in/out of downtown or close-in neighborhoods like the Hinge, Gordon Square or Clark-Fulton/Tremont.

...yeah, it's not likely to happen, but we can fantasize... and, well, you never know. I'll bet if someone had told a Denver or Dallas resident in the late 80s/early 90s, that their cities would have the rapid rail networks they have today, they'd have said that person was crazy.

[WRnative]

Units in the 5-story building will start at about $500,000.

<<Pricing could start at $475,000 and top out at $765,000, with most of the condos falling in the mid-$500,000s to mid-$600,000s. Units will range from 2,100 to 3,000 square feet.>>

Condo building planned in Cleveland's Little Italy, near Murray Hill School complex (photos) | cleveland.com

It's interesting that the developer describes the Cleveland/University Circle rental market as "frothy."

[j_ws]

Finishing some stalled infill housing in Buckeye at W114 and Shaker Blvd/MLK.

Seventy-nine new homes coming to the heart of Buckeye

[WRnative]

It will likely be a different place a decade from now.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...rts-tower-city

[WRnative]

We apparently missed the following story in September.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/artic...ds-small-piece

Something may be holding up this project, such as negotiations with Sherwin Williams and/or Medical Mutual over new office skyscrapers to be part of the project.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/artic...wirls-downtown

I wonder, however, whether we really want a big skyscraper west of Public Square, perhaps boxing in Public Square and blocking the western afternoon and evening sun.

[Kamms]

Originally Posted by WRnative

We apparently missed the following story in September.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/artic...ds-small-piece

Something may be holding up this project, such as negotiations with Sherwin Williams and/or Medical Mutual over new office skyscrapers to be part of the project.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/artic...wirls-downtown

I wonder, however, whether we really want a big skyscraper west of Public Square, perhaps boxing in Public Square and blocking the western afternoon and evening sun.

Yes, because one thing Cleveland doesn't need is a new commercial skyscraper ''blocking the western afternoon and evening sun''. The empty view of flat, multi-blocks of parking lots where buildings once stood opening up the western and evening sun far outweighs a commercial skyscraper retaining and increasing employment downtown.

PS was boxed in; it needs to be boxed again. The view to the west is an embarrassment. It's been almost 30 years of vast parking lots. It's time to build a modern tower on the west lot of PS.

Clevelanders can be so delusional.