It is Cleveland, or is it you? (Columbus: house, tech job)

[lcinva]

Originally Posted by airics

where out west are you talking about.. and also you pay the sales tax on a car where ever you live... that is one thing that is CHEAPER here....you are forgetting here you get your plates for 50 bucks, not a varying figure on the value of your vehicle.. i have homes here and in las vegas plus i am in the automotive field so i know this for a fact.

by no means do i feel this is some glorified place... cleveland has its ups and downs (mostly down in my opinion) but the only thing that is expensive (by a wide margin) is the property tax.

on the income tax, here you pay rita and ohio.. other places (including vegas), there is no state or city income tax.. it is made up elsewhere..

I am talking about both Boise and Denver. My parents are in Denver and my in-laws are in Boise. Sales tax is much less in both of those places, as is income tax, property tax, and vehicle registration. LV doesn't count; it's a whole different category..!

[chris42]

Originally Posted by lcinva

chris42, though I don't necessarily agree with you, I like seeing a well-reasoned argument on here.

We are only here for school, and other than the fact that our families are out west and we are from there, here are reasons why we have never considered staying:

1. Education is important to us, and we are basically priced out. My husband is finishing dental school and we have paid, on average $50K a year not including living expenses. Due to the poverty and general poor health of the immediate urban area (it's amazing what you see in the dental clinic here), we would have to move pretty far out to recoup those losses in salary. The dental market is heavily saturated here. By the time we moved far enough out, we'd be rural, and too far from the things we want to do (another point later).

2. Taxes are outrageous. Our friends had a 3500 sq ft home with 5 acres out west, and are paying 3 times the property tax on an 1800 sq ft home on 1/2 acre. They weren't rural, either. Because I work in the city of Cleveland, but live in South Euclid, I owe tax to both cities. That is outrageous. I would possibly make more money quitting my job and going on food stamps and medicaid like half of the dental school does. Furthermore, why would I contribute to the economy in Cuyahoga county by buying things here at a 7.75% sales tax when I could go further out (or purchase out of state) for much less? This became apparent to me in car shopping. I still don't know where the taxes go, seeing as how the infrastructure (roads) is terrible, and the schools aren't anything special. Which leads me to...

3. Why would I move to a place where the schools are bad enough it is assumed I will have to fork out $10-20K a year for private school for my kids? Whenever I comment on the schools here, the argument is always, "We have great private schools!". I shouldn't HAVE to pay for private school, isn't that what I pay taxes for?

4. This probably isn't a concern for most people here, and yes there is some recreation here, but not nearly as much outdoor recreation as out west. That's primarily our problem though, because people out here aren't as big on skiing (real skiing, not Alpine Valley skiing) as we are. I don't want to have to drive 3 hours to get to a mountain that is half as big as the ones we ski on back home.

5. Jobs/rent. I have two bachelor's degrees, in pretty marketable fields. It was relatively easy for me to find a job, only because of connections. If I were working in the areas other graduates of my school are, I would be making $15-20K more a year. And paying the same in rent. I don't know where people here are living, but to find a suitable place to live (i.e. not 100 years old, parking for two cars, not a duplex) we are paying double what friends are on BOTH coasts, except for our friends in NYC.

6. Weather. I think that's self-explanatory.

Anyway, those are the main factors that we wouldn't stay here - hope it helps!

Thanks for the response lcinva, and you have good points, but I have to make a counter-argument on a couple of things....

I lived out West (small town in Wyoming to be more exact) for about 10 months after graduating for college (I was forced to do it because of the industry I was in), and I didn't experience anything like what you have talked about.

I paid a ton of extra money in rent compared to what I can find in Northeast Ohio, and from what I hear rent is very high just about everywhere else in the West because of the influx of people moving there. That's simple supply and demand. There are areas in the West that have very cheap rent and housing prices, but that's because the area is not growing. Where it's growing, prices are insane. Homes that in Cleveland would go for about $200,000 are going for $450,000 in a lot of places.

Granted, the lower taxes out West are very nice, and I was surprised some states don't have a state tax. But, again, supply and demand and the expense on other things I encountered out West almost canceled out the money I was saving. Doing laundry was expensive, food prices were inflated, tired for cars were more expensive, just about everything else I can think of cost more, even in small towns out West, again simple supply and demand.

Also, you must know what the roads are like out there! I was in Colorado driving near one of the ski resorts, and the damn two-lane highway didn't even have guard-rails. Considering it's pretty mountainous terrain, and it was winter, I was doing some praying there. Even the Interstates really aren't kept up well in any of the states I visited out there (Wyoming, Colorado, Idaho, Utah).

Yes we are taxed to death, but I trust the infrastructure more in Cleveland than a lot of other places, and judging by the orange barrels I see every summer since I was born, I think the up-keep is strong here. I'm not saying perfect. It took way too long for our fearless leaders in government to realize that maybe the Interstate connecting the 3 largest metro areas in NE Ohio (I-77) should be 3 lanes for the entire 60+ mile distance between Cleveland and Canton, and there is serious bridge work that needs done around Cleveland. People also complain about the Shoreway into Lakewood, but I actually enjoy that, and I think they can keep it and still develop the lake area.

The education aspect I tend to agree with. I do think there are some good public schools in the area, but if you live in Cleveland, it's tough. I don't think it would be so bad if it weren't for the lack of discipline. But that starts at home too.

The other stuff is personal preference, but I will say one thing about the weather here compared to out west. There's more snow here, but it's much warmer, with much less wind. Personally, I love the changing seasons, but it's not for everyone.

[BelieveInCleve]

I agree that the whole public and private schooling around here is kind of ridiculous. The mentality I saw is almost like, if you want your kids to be anybody you have to send them to private schools, and if you dont care about your kids put them in public schools so they can work at mcdonalds their whole life or deal drugs and end up dead or in prison. Thats mostly the urban areas around here though, especially Cleveland and Lorain.

It seemed like everybody who had any money in Cleveland and Lorain (and Elyria/other local urban areas to an extent) sends their kids to private schools, and of course like you said that can be 10k+ each year which is ridiculous. I will say that our suburbs have great public schools though.

[airics]

i agree cle, but i cannot believe Mayfield fell off the top list and west geauga is on top... my things r a changin round here

[xwideopenskyx]

Chris42,

Since you mentioned that you are job hunting. If I may ask, what line of work are you in? How long have you been job hunting and have you received any decent job offers in your profession?

[chris42]

Originally Posted by xwideopenskyx

Chris42,

Since you mentioned that you are job hunting. If I may ask, what line of work are you in? How long have you been job hunting and have you received any decent job offers in your profession?

I have a background in journalism, there's jobs out there, I have an interview Monday as a matter of fact. it's a very competitive field though. I've been out of work about 5 months now, which isn't strange in that industry. I've also applied to jobs outside that industry to keep my options open. I also do some web-design work, and other computer-related things.

The last job I had I became a little too obsessed with trying to excel, and I'm trying to find something a little more normal, just get my foot in the door and work my way up. But I don't want to be the person I was at my last job. I have to try to re-learn how to treat a job as a job, bust my butt, but also not be defined by my profession. I'm confident I can find that work-life balance in Cleveland.

[xwideopenskyx]

Originally Posted by chris42

I have a background in journalism, there's jobs out there, I have an interview Monday as a matter of fact. it's a very competitive field though. I've been out of work about 5 months now, which isn't strange in that industry. I've also applied to jobs outside that industry to keep my options open. I also do some web-design work, and other computer-related things.

The last job I had I became a little too obsessed with trying to excel, and I'm trying to find something a little more normal, just get my foot in the door and work my way up. But I don't want to be the person I was at my last job. I have to try to re-learn how to treat a job as a job, bust my butt, but also not be defined by my profession. I'm confident I can find that work-life balance in Cleveland.

Thanks for responding. Good luck on Moday!

[Slash83]

Great post. I have just recently moved into Cleveland after living in the Akron area and it is totally different than Akron and is a great place to live. I hated Akron and I am glad to be here. I have never had a hard time finding a job in this area, I make good money and Cleveland is and always will be my home. When I go to different cities I can honestly say I am from Cleveland, OH with pride. We have the best skyline in Ohio, and Lake Erie is beautiful. I have the lake erie license plates on my car since I've moved up here, they are great to show off when I'm in a different city or state. I have been to various other states and can say I would never consider moving elsewhere. I had the opportunity to move ANYWHERE in the united states and I chose here. There are plenty of places out there but you will not find anywhere with people like here, the people that live in the city truly are some of the coolest people around.

There are many employers with Cleveland and we do have the best hospitals in the world like the Cleveland Clinic and University Hospitals. Are there bad areas in Cleveland? Sure..east cleveland mainly, and the city itself has rough areas. But the suburbs are great (east side suburbs like mayfield heights, beachwood, shaker heights are my favorites).

I think it's just people. If you go down to Columbus you will find people who hate Columbus. If you go to Cincinnati you will have people who hate it there. Basically any city has someone in it that hates it for the reasons describes here. Just browse the other message boards. There is plenty of "I'm sick of (enter city/state here) and want to move" posts.

[The Cactus Leaguer]

The answer to the question posed in the title of this thread is - in most cases, it's you. Cleveland is a great place, and here is what would make it "ideal":

1. The combined taxes in Cuyahoga County are outrageous. 7.75% sales tax + income tax + (high) property taxes? Yikes! By comparison, Seattle has at least the same level of amenities and an 8.9% sales tax, but fairly low property taxes and NO income tax.

2. Winter needs to be three months, not four months - otherwise keep the four seasons as-is.

3. Stop the collective self-loathing and the worrying about what everyone else thinks about you, the river, your sports teams, what cap Lebron is wearing, etc.

4. Get rid of the corrupt politicians. I know Cleveland is a liberal city, but you really need to put some Palin-esque reform-minded Republicans in there to clean house, at least for awhile. Yes you'll hate some of their policies but at least they will sweep out the redundant layers of overhead, insist on law and order, try some innovative approaches to (educational and other) reform, and blow up any excessively cozy relationships with the unions and other groups that are gorging at the government's trough. Make the liberals earn their way back in office through good ideas and good governance. Don't rubber stamp them. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I could niggle about other stuff, but really, Cleveland is just fine. It isn't Cleveland. It's you.

[ritam2001]

Cleveland just needs more people downtown. I think if there was more of a vibrant/fun atmosphere, people would not be complaining so much.