It is Cleveland, or is it you? (Columbus, Cincinnati: sales, crime)

[chris42]

I read a lot of these message boards, and take in a lot of information based on how people feel about Cleveland. I do this because I'm mid-20's, ready to settle, and would like to stay in Cleveland. After reading through some of the posts on here, and other boards, I have a couple of theories, and questions for those of you who criticize Cleveland.

1. Cleveland is still a HUGE economic force, not just locally, but globally. This link was on another post, so hopefully that person won't mind if I steal it....

http://blog.cleveland.com/openers/2007/11/06WGURBAN.pdf

BUT, notice the part of the article that mentions college graduates in Cleveland, as well as the job losses. I'll get to that in a second.

2. 37% of Fortune 500 companies have a presence in Cleveland. Cleveland is also the HQ for 25 of Fortune 1000 companies. This doesn't even cover the dozen or so colleges in the area, the Cleveland Clinic, etc.

As someone who is on the job hunt himself, this type of information is especially encouraging. Everyday on my job hunt, I learn a little more about the economic diversity that really does exist in this town.

3. This is just my opinion, but Cleveland, for its size, probably has more to do than most cities I've been to, and I've been to just about all of the big ones on the East Coast. Art, Music, Theater, Sports, Night Life, Shopping, Parks, Fishing, I could go on and on. There is so much to do that is within a 45 mile radius of Northeast Ohio, it's ridiculous to me when people complain about being bored here. And there's variety too (for example, you can go fishing right on the lake, or maybe take a drive to Hinckley, Sandusky, etc).


So here's what I want to know from those of you who have left Cleveland, and I really hope you take my questioning sincerely, because I'm not trying to act like a jerk, I just care for my community.......

1. Of those of you who left, how many left because of jobs being cut from the old steel workforce? If you did leave, did you try to find other employment in Cleveland in a different career path, or stay in your own and move elsewhere?

It seems to me that there is this "old-school" of thinking that goes on among people from the good old days of Cleveland that think industry leaving means no jobs. But there is a ton out there in different areas, I know I've met with a ton of people who are starting various technology companies in the area. Obviously, Free Trade has hit America, not just Cleveland, with job loss. But if you can't change with the world, then what else would you expect other than despair? Maybe you're not producing steel anymore, but there are companies out there looking for people who can learn how to fix printers, computers, etc. What's the difference?

2. How many of you who left for greener pastures received a college degree? If so, did you look for jobs in your career path in Cleveland first, or blow it off altogether?

In the late 1970's my dad took a job, and was able to retire when he was in his 50's, and he lives pretty well, especially considering he never made above middle-middle class wages. He had no high school degree.

Obviously in today's world, there's not a chance in hell that could happen. So if Cleveland has only 22% of Ohio's college grads, where is everyone else going? Are cities like Columbus hiring younger people? And why are there so few college grads in Cleveland? I'll never win a Nobel Prize, and I have to save up to be poor, but I have a college degree. Why, then, aren't more people in this town considering it as an option, especially with so many companies out there willing to pay, or help pay for it?

3. How many of the negative posters on Cleveland live in the more poverty stricken areas of the city? How many of you are seeking employment or are employed? What is the feeling about the community in your area?

A city can only be as strong as its weakest link, in this case the poor. I'm beyond poor myself, but I feel great about my future because I see way too many positives about this area to leave. It doesn't seem like people in my financial bracket feel the same way, however.

I refuse, and won't accept the racial crap that I see on these boards, so let's not even start it here.

What I do wonder is what are you doing as a less-fortunate person to pick yourself up? Where did your education begin, and when did it end? Can you finish?

Obviously this is a tough issue, because there are many factors that can force someone into poverty, thus making crime look like a much more attractive offer. I know when I was in high school, there wasn't a rule around that I couldn't wait to try to not get caught breaking. But I also knew that without a diploma, I would be screwed. And if you don't share that same urgency, and are looking for hand-outs later on (I said hand-outs, not HELP), then maybe you should be the one to leave the city.

Again, these are things that I have been throwing around in my mind. There's some fact here, but mostly one guy's opinion. I just think there are too many positives about this town to let a few ruin it. And there's been far too much complacency in this town towards people with that attitude.

[costello_musicman]

Great Post!

There really are tons of jobs here, especially if you have a college degree. I too have been around the world, about 30 states, and numerous other major cities--after all of that, I've decided I can be happy in Cleveland OH.

One of the biggest mental detrements to the city is the negative news that is so seemingly easily accepted as "the way things are." You create you're own environment, especially referring to those who say they're unhappy here. Seriously, take up jogging in the metroparks, go fishing or boating in Lake Erie, go to the Westside Market every Saturday, go to Browns/Cavs/Indians games, go sit outside and enjoy a glass of wine in Little Italy, go see a Broadway Show at Playhouse Square.

Education is probably one of the bigger areas of improvement we need around here. People in Cleveland are finally beginning the realize the importance of college degrees to higher paying work. Hopefully, slowly our local population wll be filling in the gaps of the expanding companies around here (i.e biotech, tech, Cleveland Clinic) instead of having to hire much of the new hires from out of state/out of country.

[airics]

1- not in steel workforce, of course tried here first
2- yes college degree, unless medical or i.t, cleveland is not even on the short list - didnt blow it off though, there are just no jobs (cost of living high) - so i didnt even use my degree (self employed - did very very well until about a year ago when gas totally annihilated the business)
3- never lived in poverty area (chesterland to mayfield -that was a mistake)
-feeling of community- mayfield - no one talks to anyone in my area.. they are too good for everybody else
I disagree on the education part unless you are referring to the Cleveland schools..We have some fantastic colleges, Case - John Carroll - Notre Dame. However the cost of these schools is terrible. My nephew goes to ND, 28k a year... After school, it will take him many years to pay off the loans

[BelieveInCleve]

(1) Correct.
(2) Correct.

1. I never left and have lived in the Cleveland area almost all my life so I cant answer that question. Around here I have lived in Lorain, Elyria, Cleveland, and North Ridgeville. Ive lived in other places for short periods of time including around NYC, NJ and Cincinnati.

2. Never left, so again I cant answer that question. But I have a lot of relatives that left the area because they said they couldnt find jobs here or left for better opportunities and better pay, but none of them did a good job in searching around here for jobs. Most of them just saw the opportunity and left.

3. I dont really feel that Im a negative poster. I stick up for Cleveland all the time and only seem to "bash it" when I show actual facts, statistics or first hand accounts about bad things. I grew up in the more "Poverty stricken areas" of Lorain and Elyria and have lived in some poor areas of Cleveland city for short periods of time. Im currently moving back to a poorer area of Lorain and I am unemployed. I only have a high school diploma (barely) so there arent many career options for me. Im stuck doing other things and working on and off at different little jobs and ways to make money. In the areas that I grew up in the kids all look up to the drug dealers and most people dont even consider 9 to 5 type jobs. I have seen old friends pull out $3000 from their pocket that they made from selling drugs for just a few days, for kids that grew up poor its hard to pass up that stuff. The feeling of community and about the economy in those areas is not good.

[Kasey77]

You Rock Chris42! Please get into politics in Cleveland. Cleveland needs you!

[chris42]

Originally Posted by Kasey77

You Rock Chris42! Please get into politics in Cleveland. Cleveland needs you!

Thanks Kasey, but I'll have to pass on that. Too many skeletons....I did inhale in college, and I'm not about to hide it. Plus my political beliefs would make someone like Ron Paul seem normal.

Cle440, we have to be larger than the law. If the law isn't doing its job, like in the case of the communities mentioned by Cle440, then it's up to us to take a stand. Serious criminals (like drug dealers) are cowards, and the more we press police in our area to spend more time in the especially troubling areas, rather than camping out and writing tickets for people driving 40 in a 35, the more we can take our streets back.

The only problem with that, is it's not as easy as it sounds. Try telling that to a cop sometime if you don't believe me. But if enough people make noise, then they have to take notice.

[BelieveInCleve]

Originally Posted by chris42

Cle440, we have to be larger than the law. If the law isn't doing its job, like in the case of the communities mentioned by Cle440, then it's up to us to take a stand. Serious criminals (like drug dealers) are cowards, and the more we press police in our area to spend more time in the especially troubling areas, rather than camping out and writing tickets for people driving 40 in a 35, the more we can take our streets back.

This place called Sheffield Lake (near Lorain/Elyria) comes to mind with the driving 40 in a 35 and getting pulled over. Sheffield Lake cops are a pretty big joke around here. My aunt was actually pulled over in Sheffield Lake for driving like 5 miles over the speed limit (I think it was 40 in a 35 lol) with one broken tail light, she had to wait forever and had to pay a big fine. Unlike Lorain, Cleveland and Elyria there is nothing going on in Sheffield Lake so they waste their time with stuff like that.

[airics]

ahh speaking of speeding tickets, how about being pulled over and ticketed for 3 over in Boston Heights

[lcinva]

chris42, though I don't necessarily agree with you, I like seeing a well-reasoned argument on here.

We are only here for school, and other than the fact that our families are out west and we are from there, here are reasons why we have never considered staying:

1. Education is important to us, and we are basically priced out. My husband is finishing dental school and we have paid, on average $50K a year not including living expenses. Due to the poverty and general poor health of the immediate urban area (it's amazing what you see in the dental clinic here), we would have to move pretty far out to recoup those losses in salary. The dental market is heavily saturated here. By the time we moved far enough out, we'd be rural, and too far from the things we want to do (another point later).

2. Taxes are outrageous. Our friends had a 3500 sq ft home with 5 acres out west, and are paying 3 times the property tax on an 1800 sq ft home on 1/2 acre. They weren't rural, either. Because I work in the city of Cleveland, but live in South Euclid, I owe tax to both cities. That is outrageous. I would possibly make more money quitting my job and going on food stamps and medicaid like half of the dental school does. Furthermore, why would I contribute to the economy in Cuyahoga county by buying things here at a 7.75% sales tax when I could go further out (or purchase out of state) for much less? This became apparent to me in car shopping. I still don't know where the taxes go, seeing as how the infrastructure (roads) is terrible, and the schools aren't anything special. Which leads me to...

3. Why would I move to a place where the schools are bad enough it is assumed I will have to fork out $10-20K a year for private school for my kids? Whenever I comment on the schools here, the argument is always, "We have great private schools!". I shouldn't HAVE to pay for private school, isn't that what I pay taxes for?

4. This probably isn't a concern for most people here, and yes there is some recreation here, but not nearly as much outdoor recreation as out west. That's primarily our problem though, because people out here aren't as big on skiing (real skiing, not Alpine Valley skiing) as we are. I don't want to have to drive 3 hours to get to a mountain that is half as big as the ones we ski on back home.

5. Jobs/rent. I have two bachelor's degrees, in pretty marketable fields. It was relatively easy for me to find a job, only because of connections. If I were working in the areas other graduates of my school are, I would be making $15-20K more a year. And paying the same in rent. I don't know where people here are living, but to find a suitable place to live (i.e. not 100 years old, parking for two cars, not a duplex) we are paying double what friends are on BOTH coasts, except for our friends in NYC.

6. Weather. I think that's self-explanatory.

Anyway, those are the main factors that we wouldn't stay here - hope it helps!

[airics]

where out west are you talking about.. and also you pay the sales tax on a car where ever you live... that is one thing that is CHEAPER here....you are forgetting here you get your plates for 50 bucks, not a varying figure on the value of your vehicle.. i have homes here and in las vegas plus i am in the automotive field so i know this for a fact.

by no means do i feel this is some glorified place... cleveland has its ups and downs (mostly down in my opinion) but the only thing that is expensive (by a wide margin) is the property tax.

on the income tax, here you pay rita and ohio.. other places (including vegas), there is no state or city income tax.. it is made up elsewhere..