cleveland: can it be saved? (crime, casinos, income)

[jasper1372]

This is only my unvarnished opinion....off the cuff no less. That being said I think the rust belt is, at least for the next 10 or 20 years, going to be increasingly experiencing hard times...which we all know they already are. Most every area of the country is facing hard times....but the midwest and north east is really hurting.

The only thing that will keep the southwest from it's continued explosion of population and development is a severe water shortage. We can see that issue on the horizion....but it's not quite at the acute stage yet were it really affects the residents.

If desalinization of sea water is brought down to a cost level where it's not much higher than ground or resouviour water now.....there will be no stopping the growth in the south, southwest and west.

Let's face it folks....people with a choice don't generally choose the obnoxious weather of the midwest and northeast. Yes, not everybody chooses where to live based on only the weather, but it sure appears that as our society ages that is were more and more are heading. With many jobs now you can telecommute....and more and more of that will happen as time goes on. Telecommuniting will only add to the exedous of downtown areas that are already hurting in many areas....especially in the midwest and east.

Anyway....like I said, just my off the cuff thoughts.

[twange]

Originally Posted by Chef Boyardee

Prior to desegregation crime in America was much lower than it was after desegregation. Blacks commit crimes at an extremely higher rate than Whites do. So, it is reasonable to conclude or at least strongly suspect that desegregation caused a huge increase in crime in America. Therefore, we can logically say, segregation "works" and desegregation does not "work," in regards to crime. Of course, I doubt any of this will convince you

I wonder what you are referring to in your last sentence

Wow. There's nothing "reasonable" or "logical"about this statement. It's just bigoted, prejudiced and racist. But since you seem so confident in your position, I suppose any further conversation is a waste of time.

[NewToCA]

Originally Posted by Chef Boyardee

Prior to desegregation crime in America was much lower than it was after desegregation. Blacks commit crimes at an extremely higher rate than Whites do. So, it is reasonable to conclude or at least strongly suspect that desegregation caused a huge increase in crime in America. Therefore, we can logically say, segregation "works" and desegregation does not "work," in regards to crime. Of course, I doubt any of this will convince you

I wonder what you are referring to in your last sentence

Actually, I think crime is more linked to lack of economic success, and the enhancement of economic opportunity was a major reason behind the (appropriate) breaking up of segregation in our cities. One could argue about the processes used to desegregate, and were they done in the fairest and most constructive manner, but segregation cannot be supported as appropriate.

I request that all posters assume we are not going to make this a racially oriented thread, or I'll need to shut it down.

Thank you.

[sandlotbully2]

Race aside, a thug is a thug. Rid the city of thugs, as a starting point, and proceed onto problems, that have solutions, and are valuable to the cities improvement. Cleveland will change when we have zero tolerance of thugs and their sociopathic behavior.

[Chef Boyardee]

Originally Posted by NewToCA

Actually, I think crime is more linked to lack of economic success, and the enhancement of economic opportunity was a major reason behind the (appropriate) breaking up of segregation in our cities. One could argue about the processes used to desegregate, and were they done in the fairest and most constructive manner, but segregation cannot be supported as appropriate.

I request that all posters assume we are not going to make this a racially oriented thread, or I'll need to shut it down.

Thank you.

I hope this is good enough for you to not close the thread. I do not think economics is the only factor, nor do I think it is the primary factor in regards to crime. Of course, that is an old debate. Still, if we are looking for solutions, then we should be honest. So, if helping Cleveland involves controlling crime and (ideology aside) it appears that there is a big fat elephant in the room that none dare speak of, which appears to be a primary cause, then it stands to reason, it need be part of the discussion, regardless of one's disposition to it. Otherwise, one should conclude that Cleveland will refuse to help itself, because it can't stand being wrong about something Remember, part of helping Cleveland involves attracting people and retaining people and that is harder to do with high crime and, it would seem, a refusal to maintain communities that people can invest in and put roots in, knowing that the city will do what it takes to maintain the character of the community they took a chance on.

Otherwise, we are back to economics. Unfortunately, China is a much better place to manufacture goods, if your businesses only consideration is competing in The Global Economy. Since this appears to be the only solution that you will allow yourself to believe will work, then you seem helpless to solve crime in Cleveland, without a radical change in our National Trade Policy (which seems about as likely as a radical change in our National Policies on Segregation).

Barring crime and industry, all that's left appears to be handouts and Cleveland seems well positioned, for the moment, to receive some of those

[jmlicb]

Originally Posted by Chef Boyardee

Prior to desegregation crime in America was much lower than it was after desegregation. Blacks commit crimes at an extremely higher rate than Whites do. So, it is reasonable to conclude or at least strongly suspect that desegregation caused a huge increase in crime in America. Therefore, we can logically say, segregation "works" and desegregation does not "work," in regards to crime. Of course, I doubt any of this will convince you

I wonder what you are referring to in your last sentence

This is no doubt one of the most backwards racist comments I've ever seen on this forum, and further more a problematic theory based not only in ignorance but also in pure evil.

The only reason I am even attempting to respond to this outrageous post is to save face and reputation for a city and people I love. So don't think you deserve this at all.

No offense but are you over 50 and from Parma? The reason crime rose after desegregation is because of hostility on all sides. All notable scholars would agree that segregation as a long term resolution is bogus and demeaning to the goals of this country and the human race in general.

This is the classic example of how inherently ignorant people can be. I am not sure what your actual age is but, regardless, if you have eyeballs or ear drums or a pulse, the people around you and on this form deserve a much broader and in depth perspective of reality than you actually give.

I'm not bashing you just the institution that you stand for.

Blacks, Whites, Puerto Ricans, Polish, Slovenians, Vietnamese, Chinese, have all economically impacted our city in both positive and negative ways.

To suggest an UNLAWFUL criminal activity such as segregation is not only UNREALISTIC but also I FEEL DUMBER FOR EVEN TALKING ABOUT THE SUBJECT. That being said, can we PLEASE stick to something realistice instead of chasing magical butterflies filled with ignorance and confusion.

[BelieveInCleve]

Im not racist (Im half puerto rican, and from the inner city), but it is a true fact that blacks and Hispanics commit crimes at much higher rates than whites (and several other races). This is actually true in all income groups. You also have to understand that blacks and Hispanics are also much more likely to be singled out by police and arrested more for doing the same crimes as whites, but getting convicted at a higher rate and sentenced to more time. Its sad, but thats how things are right now and have been for a while.

Of course most of it doesnt have to do with race and has more to do with the level of income. I know and have met many good, law abiding citzens that are minorities (including myself, now). Clevelands main problem is obviously the lack of jobs. This leads to more unemployment, and more poverty. With that poverty comes people not having enough money for anything and they are forced to steal, sell drugs, and do a lot of illegal acts to make money and feed and cloth their family. With living in these bad conditions some people just want a way out. They use drugs for many reasons, and end up getting hooked on it. Drug addicts will commit just about any crime and steal nearly anything to get money for the drugs they need to function normally. Cleveland is a prime example for all of this. If we ever do get more jobs, than we should really see a lot of the bad things decreasing. All of thats pretty obvious though. Theres less jobs than ever right now, so thats why you see the crime so high in the area. So until the area starts gaining jobs things arent going to get any better. Sorry to say it, but thats just the truth.

[WeSoHood]

Originally Posted by NewToCA

Actually, I think crime is more linked to lack of economic success, and the enhancement of economic opportunity was a major reason behind the (appropriate) breaking up of segregation in our cities. One could argue about the processes used to desegregate, and were they done in the fairest and most constructive manner, but segregation cannot be supported as appropriate.

I request that all posters assume we are not going to make this a racially oriented thread, or I'll need to shut it down.

Thank you.

You hit the nail on the head. I can almost bet you, if a study was done about crime committed based on the economic status of each race - you will see similar figures. Chef Boyardee's comments are pretty absurd.

[gentlearts]

No.
What other city with the natural potential-the lakefront- has blown it like Cleveland? Not Chicago. Not Milwaukee. Not Toronto, Canada. Sure, Cleveland has a disadvantage now because of the heavy rustbelt industries, but what was its excuse in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, etc??? Now, it would take a gazillionare to come in and buy it up to fix it.

[Chef Boyardee]

All fanaticism aside,

The Color of Crime

Read and learn.