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10-19-2009, 10:35 AM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Cleveland, OH
796 posts, read 606,960 times
Reputation: 135
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Not to mention, a majority of these studies are financed by groups who oppose the casinos or want the casino--meaning biased studies. The truth will lie somewhere in the middle.
Do I think a casino will help Downtown Cleveland? yes
Will new construction add excitement downtown with more potential mementum? yes
Do I think the tax money will help the schools? no
IMO, a casino will cause more people to come downtown. The other entertainment districts downtown may suffer initially, but it will even itself out.
Specically the casino would go on the Scranton Penisula across from the Q. No neighborhood is left there, so a sea of parking lots/garage mentioned above won't really hurt an Urban fabric, and it may actaully strength the flats in the long run.
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10-19-2009, 03:24 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 2009
270 posts, read 93,022 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cactus Leaguer
No, I don't, and here's why:
1. For every person who says - "Hey. A casino in Cleveland. Cancel my trip to (Detroit, Atlantic City, Vegas, a gambling website, etc.), I'm going to the Flats to spend my entertainment dollar!", you will have at least as many (if not many more) people in there who should not be in there... emptying their social security payments, welfare checks, new shoes for their kids money, robbed the Quickie-Mart/embezzled from their company to feed their gambling fix money on the slots or whatever. These things happen all the time and I guarantee you that families and businesses will be destroyed if/when the casino comes to the Flats.
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I do have an issue with this line of thinking. Like putting a casino here is automagically going to create gambling addicts. Newsflash: We live 90 minutes from a casino in PA. 2 hours from a casino in WVA. And 2 hours from a casino in Detroit. There are already addicts here as there are everywhere. They can get their fix anytime by: A) driving out of state... it's not that far at all B) Horsetracks C) Hold 'Em Charity events in the flats all summer long D) In a buddies' basement.
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10-19-2009, 03:28 PM
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Member
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Join Date: Oct 2009
11 posts, read 4,163 times
Reputation: 10
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Look at Indiana, Tennessee, and West Virginia though. They have done very well with casinos and have had no problems with crime.
And as far as the revenue going to schools, it goes directly to the schools and counties unlike the Lottery, which is collected by the state first, then they take some out and spend it on new chairs in the State House and send the rest to the schools.
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10-20-2009, 11:10 AM
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I'm a GROUCH! So deal with it!
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Here and there, you decide.
4,132 posts, read 2,774,857 times
Reputation: 387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cactus Leaguer
No, I don't, and here's why:
3. Casinos destroy neighborhoods. Even in Las Vegas where virtually all of the money comes from out of state, if you wander a half a block off the strip, you are living dangerously.
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Sorry you are way off on that one... Cleveland is much more dangerous than Vegas. Granted if you go NORTH of the strip about a mile, it can be ghetto like, but again not nearly as dangerous as Vegas. You have to take the ratings based on population. I believe Cleveland has 400k people and approx 125 murders per yr. Vegas has 2million so it would have to have 625 murders...
Now crime as a whole, Vegas tops cleveland because of the auto theft.
My opinion on a casino for Cleveland, I'm against it.. Look who plays the lottery, the poor.. unemployed, etc.. (for the most part).. And look at the odds of neighboring casinos, they aren't good anyway. Vegas gives away free room and drinks to players, what will cleveland give, a cigarette? |
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10-20-2009, 06:49 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: cleveland
553 posts, read 498,499 times
Reputation: 122
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maybe the money from casinos will limit the many school levies we see every year ? maybe a few thousand jobs are better then zero ? and i sure would like to see some facts on all the opinions thrown around in above opinions. its the same thing everytime gambling issues come around, everyone from religion freaks to politicians have an opinion. i think if people like to gamble, smoke,drink,skydive,pray,etc that is their choice. a casino wont hurt someone if you choose to not spend your money there. oh and please hold the arguments about "how it destroyed our family".. so does booze, car accidents,divorce,etc ,etc,etc...
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10-21-2009, 12:55 AM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
214 posts, read 177,010 times
Reputation: 65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1watertiger
maybe the money from casinos will limit the many school levies we see every year ? maybe a few thousand jobs are better then zero ? and i sure would like to see some facts on all the opinions thrown around in above opinions. its the same thing everytime gambling issues come around, everyone from religion freaks to politicians have an opinion. i think if people like to gamble, smoke,drink,skydive,pray,etc that is their choice. a casino wont hurt someone if you choose to not spend your money there. oh and please hold the arguments about "how it destroyed our family".. so does booze, car accidents,divorce,etc ,etc,etc...
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I'm not sure if your remark was pointed at me but I wasn't referring to the gamblers themselves, I'm talking about innocent bystanders. Just a few days ago I was reading in our local paper about a furniture business that went under (along with 185 jobs) because their bookkeeper embezzled funds for the past two years to feed a gambling addiction, courtesy of the local Indian casino.
At an individual level you are correct, there is really no argument against the libertarian line of thinking. But, since there are other ways to gamble legally if one chooses, I think this more of an issue about what is best for the community:
-Construction jobs? Yes.
-Casino jobs? Yes.
-Net inflow of dollars into the city? Yes, but I think this is marginal and the overwhelming majority will be "substitution effect" dollars from locals who otherwise would have spent their discretionary dollars at other local businesses (which can offset the increase in casino jobs)
-Catalyst for a lively entertainment district? Debatable, but I'd say no based on what I've seen elsewhere (and that's what you have to look at long term, not an architect's rendering)
-Increase in crime? There will probably be a rise in incidents but the overall effect will probably not be significant.
-Increased well-being in the city? Positive for financial benefactors and new jobs, net zero for the folks spending discretionary income, negative for the people who are gambling money that they should not be spending
-Tax revenues? Debatable due to substitution effect, the fact that it's a regressive (but not mandatory) tax, and the fact that it puts schools/essential services in the position of having to promote vice in order to get funded. But it is great for rich property owners who are getting hammered on property taxes in Cuyahoga County.
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10-21-2009, 11:27 AM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 2009
270 posts, read 93,022 times
Reputation: 71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cactus Leaguer
Just a few days ago I was reading in our local paper about a furniture business that went under (along with 185 jobs) because their bookkeeper embezzled funds for the past two years to feed a gambling addiction, courtesy of the local Indian casino.
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Which goes right back to my point. If someone has a gambling addiction it will get fed. Whether we have a casino or not.... |
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10-22-2009, 12:08 AM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
214 posts, read 177,010 times
Reputation: 65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrine
Which goes right back to my point. If someone has a gambling addiction it will get fed. Whether we have a casino or not....
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Do you seriously believe that there is no correlation between access and addiction?
And on the back end, do you seriously believe that people do not have the power to overcome addictions? |
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10-22-2009, 12:54 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 2009
270 posts, read 93,022 times
Reputation: 71
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No, what I am saying is many of us already have access.
Hold 'Em tourney's in the flats anyone?
Casino's 90 minutes away?
Yes, the problem will increase with a casino here, but it will be a very small increase IMO, and not a good reason to keep casino's away.
Of course I know people can overcome addiction. Did not mean to imply otherwise.
Quote:
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Just a few days ago I was reading in our local paper about a furniture business that went under (along with 185 jobs) because their bookkeeper embezzled funds for the past two years to feed a gambling addiction, courtesy of the local Indian casino.
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So then you blame the casino for this?
Last edited by Peregrine; 10-22-2009 at 01:08 PM..
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10-22-2009, 09:30 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
214 posts, read 177,010 times
Reputation: 65
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Okay, we agree to disagree then.
Have there been any polls released recently on this topic? I will be surprised if it doesn't pass.
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