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Old 04-23-2012, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Silver Spring, MD
2,843 posts, read 2,972,183 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBojangles View Post
It's funny not being on here for a few days, yet seeing my ideas appear . I too saw the Mercer posting and thought the railroad/Dickinson/Pitt/Bonners area would be a great place to put it.

Another area I thought would be good would be: Dickinson/Ficklen/9th/Washington or Evans/10th. Now imagine coming over the railroad bridge and see ECU's Warehouse District on the right, and a Minor League park on the left. How bout that for an entrance.

Plus you can convert the old Ficklen Warehouse to lofts, businesses etc. Try to use the American Tobacco District in Durham as a guide. The park here would connect ECU's properties to the uptown. Then we can clear out the north side of Dickinson for other redevelopment.

Also, ECU is/was planning a hotel along with the Preforming Arts Center, along 1st St. So there is talk of that as well.
That would be such a beautiful and urban image. Imagine after you go pass the bridge and ball park you see a 7-8 level hotel in the distance, and the streets are vibrant; filled with ball park spectators, innovators, students, and etc. That would be the day...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sregorat3 View Post
Sounds like the Cheesecake Factory story. While not the same, the chain is not franchised and only has 200 stores. The demographics for one of their stores is shown below:


2011------ 1-Mile 3-Mile 5-Mile

Population: 9,335 50,099 120,511

Income: $79,002 $86,766 $75,553

I'm sure there are some lower and some higher, but it those income numbers take a huge drop if they have to match Greenville's demographics. Density wouldn't be quite the issue.
And I'm not even going to disagree with rumors anymore lol maybe PF Changs is coming so I'll just wait for the announcement. I know they have more locations than The Cheesecake Factory but they are typically in markets that could support a Cheesecake Factory, so if (and thats a huge if) PF Changs does come then I guess Greenville demographics could support a Cheesecake Factory, Nordstrom, Tiffany, Burberry, and etc as well. lol
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:05 PM
 
2,437 posts, read 2,444,302 times
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This is a FYI post about Minor League Baseball (MiLB)
There are currently 30 teams in Major League Baseball.

Triple-A
The top level MiLB is AAA. There are two leagues and 30 teams total. The Durham Bulls and Charlotte Knights are AAA. There is zero chance we get an AAA team.

Double-A
The next level is AA. There are three leagues and 30 teams total. No league is in North Carolina. The Carolina Mudcats were in this league, but moved last year. So there is a zero chance (I believe) in getting a team here.

Class A-Advanced
The next level is Class A-Advanced. There are three leagues and 30 teams total. One of the leagues, Carolina League, has a presence in North Carolina. But, there are already 30 teams (one for each MLB team). So either one of the eight teams in the Carolina League would need to move, or two teams would have to move from another league. This league is where Kinston played.

The Lynchburg Hillcats average near the bottom with under 2.5k per game. Kinston averaged under 2k and was moved. Attendance stats here. Best case scenario would be to get a Lynchburg to move here. Other local teams in the Carolina League are the Carolina Mudcats, Winston-Salem Dash, and Myrtle Beach Pelicans.

The chance of getting a team from this league is low (in my opinion), but a lot higher than the other higher classification system.

Class A
The next level is Class A. There are two leagues with 30 teams. One of the leagues, South Atlantic League, have teams located in North Carolina. They include Greensboro Grasshoppers, Hickory Crawdads, Kannapolis Intimidators, and Asheville Tourists. But like the Class A-Advanced, there are already 30 teams. So a team would have to move to Greenville. Attendance averages. So there is a possibility. Plus there are a lot more other teams in NC to become competitive with.

Class A-Short Season
The next level is Class A-Short Season. There are two leagues with 22 teams. But neither league is near North Carolina. The eight MLB teams without a team here have a team in the Rookie Leagues.

Rookie
The lowest level is Rookie league. There are six leagues with 82 teams. The Appalachian League has ten teams, with one team in Burlington. The rest are in the Appalachian's in Tennessee, West Virginia, and Virginia. So not really close. This league doesn't seem feasible for us.


So the only hope for us in MiLB, in my opinion, is moving a team from the Carolina League or South Atlantic League to Greenville.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:34 PM
 
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Another possibility is one of the Collegiate Summer Baseball Leagues. These are strictly college players. There are 48 leagues throughout the country.

The Great South League plays nearish to Greenville, but seems too small for what we want.

There is also the Carolina-Virginia Collegiate League. But it too seem too small for what we want.

Lastly, there is the Coastal Plain League. I didn't look at every league, but this would probably be the only college league I would want in Greenville. It takes its name from the Coastal Plain League (Class D), which Greenville had a team with on and off from 1937-1951. There are teams in Edenton, Wilson, Fayetteville, Morehead City and Wilmington. So a lot of close teams to build up rivalries with.

But, I don't see this being a driving force to build a new stadium. Maybe to renovate Guy Smith and show we are able to support it and bigger teams. The Outer Banks Daredevils shut down operations at the end of 2011. So there is a "team" out there we could get.

But again, I don't see us building a new stadium uptown with a CPL team.
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:25 AM
 
372 posts, read 299,404 times
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so is the PF Changs rumor true this time?
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Old 04-24-2012, 01:48 PM
 
660 posts, read 898,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBojangles View Post
This is a FYI post about Minor League Baseball (MiLB)

Class A-Advanced

The Lynchburg Hillcats average near the bottom with under 2.5k per game. Kinston averaged under 2k and was moved. Attendance stats here. Best case scenario would be to get a Lynchburg to move here. Other local teams in the Carolina League are the Carolina Mudcats, Winston-Salem Dash, and Myrtle Beach Pelicans.

The chance of getting a team from this league is low (in my opinion), but a lot higher than the other higher classification system.



So the only hope for us in MiLB, in my opinion, is moving a team from the Carolina League or South Atlantic League to Greenville.
Being in Lynchburg and knowing the administrators within the Hillcat's organization, the team won't be going anywhere unless someone ponies up big bucks to build a new stadium- as in 35 to 40M. Wilmington is already in discussion with the Braves in an effort to make this happen. The stadium in Lynchburg is pretty nice and hasn't been without a team since it opened in 1940. If things fail with Wilmington, there is a good chance that the Hillcats (which are locally owned) will be sold to the Braves.

Greenville and Lynchburg are somewhat similar, though Lynchburg has a larger metro area. I doubt if Atlanta would see I better opportunity in Greenville (unless there was a 35M dollar park built) and attendance wouldn't likely surpass what has been seen in Lynchburg. If the Braves move their team in 2014, Lynchburg will be looking for another team to step in- probably having to weigh all the options above.
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Old 04-24-2012, 03:47 PM
 
2,437 posts, read 2,444,302 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sregorat3 View Post
Being in Lynchburg and knowing the administrators within the Hillcat's organization, the team won't be going anywhere unless someone ponies up big bucks to build a new stadium- as in 35 to 40M. Wilmington is already in discussion with the Braves in an effort to make this happen. The stadium in Lynchburg is pretty nice and hasn't been without a team since it opened in 1940. If things fail with Wilmington, there is a good chance that the Hillcats (which are locally owned) will be sold to the Braves.

Greenville and Lynchburg are somewhat similar, though Lynchburg has a larger metro area. I doubt if Atlanta would see I better opportunity in Greenville (unless there was a 35M dollar park built) and attendance wouldn't likely surpass what has been seen in Lynchburg. If the Braves move their team in 2014, Lynchburg will be looking for another team to step in- probably having to weigh all the options above.
I was just using attendance as a predictor. There are a lot of other things, such as facilities, owners etc, that have an impact on a move or not.

But as a quick posting, I thought attendance would do
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:43 PM
 
766 posts, read 672,394 times
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I attend as many ECU baseball games as I can. They're drawing over 2500 per game, usually over 3000 on the weekends and with good weather. I'll grant that the students get in free and the Pirates run a successful baseball program, but I doubt they draw much from beyond Pitt County (except when they play another local school). A stadium in an upstart area of Greenville should pull in people regionally, not just Greenville/Pitt (Eventually the folks in Kinston will get over their demise in baseball and come, too.). A Greenville team should be able to draw at least an average of 3000 per game, probably more. 3000 tickets sold at 70 games is 210,000; so if you figure it very well will be higher, then Greenville can very easily settle into the middle of the pack in terms of attendance. Which is fine. We certainly could offer a better alternative than Hagerstown, Maryland, who averages 800 fans a game, which is terrible. I also don't see why we can't out-sell Asheville, averaging around 2000. I find it hard to believe that some team owner down the not-too-distant future wouldn't see Greenville as a viable option for their business. (Side note: I know that a few years ago the Wilmington (Del.) Blue Rocks upgraded their stadium to AA standards as they have a desire to move out of the Carolina League. For one: it's a higher league; For two: their travel expenses are the highest in the CL because of how far north they are. If there is ever an opportunity for them to move upward, they'll take it. So it's not impossible for a team to change leagues. Hell, the Bulls went from A+ to AAA.)

My worry about Dickinson Ave. is that if nothing of significance is done there, it will never be revitalized - or it will take another generation to make any progress. I really feel a need to have a baseball park built between Atlantic, Dickinson, Pitt and Bonners. It's very possible that if it were to be placed down in the vicinity of where the WilcoHess station is currently located, then the easiest thing to do would be to keep ignoring Dickinson Ave. because it would be easier and safer to invest in Evans and 10th. To me the whole business of revitalizing downtown's west end is making Dickinson Ave. relevant again. It's a matter of setting up the boundaries and filling in the middle. If you build it, they will come, as investors, patrons, guests and residents.
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:23 PM
 
660 posts, read 898,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil A. Delphia View Post
A Greenville team should be able to draw at least an average of 3000 per game, probably more. 3000 tickets sold at 70 games is 210,000; so if you figure it very well will be higher, then Greenville can very easily settle into the middle of the pack in terms of attendance. Which is fine. We certainly could offer a better alternative than Hagerstown, Maryland, who averages 800 fans a game, which is terrible. I also don't see why we can't out-sell Asheville, averaging around 2000. I find it hard to believe that some team owner down the not-too-distant future wouldn't see Greenville as a viable option for their business.
I guess I find some fascination with the way some suggest that the market should outperform larger and arguably more affluent markets for things- restaurants, baseball, etc. I teach undergrad business and as a part of my business, study economics of regions. The reason Greenville and cities like Greenville don't have some of the amenities of larger cities such as Asheville, Greenville, SC, Roanoke, VA is because the demographics indicate that those amenities wouldn't enjoy the same success as they would in larger areas. Thinking that Greenville should outdraw Asheville... not something the data would support. College games would outdraw minor league games in many places and always will. Most students aren't jonesing for a minor league baseball fix in the middle of summer when school is out (and Greenville's economic picture probably takes a slight hit then, as well).
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:53 PM
 
766 posts, read 672,394 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sregorat3 View Post
I guess I find some fascination with the way some suggest that the market should outperform larger and arguably more affluent markets for things- restaurants, baseball, etc. I teach undergrad business and as a part of my business, study economics of regions. The reason Greenville and cities like Greenville don't have some of the amenities of larger cities such as Asheville, Greenville, SC, Roanoke, VA is because the demographics indicate that those amenities wouldn't enjoy the same success as they would in larger areas. Thinking that Greenville should outdraw Asheville... not something the data would support. College games would outdraw minor league games in many places and always will. Most students aren't jonesing for a minor league baseball fix in the middle of summer when school is out (and Greenville's economic picture probably takes a slight hit then, as well).
South Atlantic League Attendance | South Atlantic League Stats

Nobody said anything about students jonesing for anything. We're thinking about families and adults. We're here in Greenville too, and some of us (not necessarily me) have plenty money they'd like to spend in Greenville, but they cannot spend it in places that don't exist, but, with a concerted effort, could.

The above link that was provided in an earlier post. Asheville in 3rd last in attendance, one of only 3 teams pulling in less than 2000 per game. The Delmarva Shorebirds rank 6th. Salisbury, Maryland is smaller than Greenville and has basically nothing but the proximity to Ocean City going for it. The Kinston franchise had a certain popularity to it, but it was held back and ultimately under-minded by the condition and location of Kinston itself. Greenville is the hub of the area. It should be the place to be. We'd like to try to make that happen. We're not trying to stick a ballpark on the side of the highway. We'd like to see a revitalization and a gentrification of a once vibrant area of town. Greenville has grown out, now it's time to grow up. Do you, with your economic expertise, have any ideas of how to make anything happen in Greenville?

Edit: The above link is so far this season. Here's the stats for 2011: Asheville and Savannah (affluent) are in the lower half. With proper promotions and a great entertainment and the place-to-be experience, I see no reason why Greenville can't drop right near the middle of this group.

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats...d=116&sid=l116

Last edited by Phil A. Delphia; 04-24-2012 at 09:29 PM.. Reason: 2011 Attendance Stats
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Old 04-24-2012, 09:48 PM
 
660 posts, read 898,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil A. Delphia View Post
South Atlantic League Attendance | South Atlantic League Stats

Nobody said anything about students jonesing for anything. We're thinking about families and adults. We're here in Greenville too, and some of us (not necessarily me) have plenty money they'd like to spend in Greenville, but they cannot spend it in places that don't exist, but, with a concerted effort, could.

The above link that was provided in an earlier post. Asheville in 3rd last in attendance, one of only 3 teams pulling in less than 2000 per game. The Delmarva Shorebirds rank 6th. Salisbury, Maryland is smaller than Greenville and has basically nothing but the proximity to Ocean City going for it. The Kinston franchise had a certain popularity to it, but it was held back and ultimately under-minded by the condition and location of Kinston itself. Greenville is the hub of the area. It should be the place to be. We'd like to try to make that happen. We're not trying to stick a ballpark on the side of the highway. We'd like to see a revitalization and a gentrification of a once vibrant area of town. Greenville has grown out, now it's time to grow up. Do you, with your economic expertise, have any ideas of how to make anything happen in Greenville?
Observation of economics and actual expertise are two different things. I actually use Greenville as a pretty neutral comparator with the area where I have a business and teach (Lynchburg, VA). I'd say that the area should have great potential... but it is behind the 8 ball, statistically. In many ways the areas are very similar and have some of the same issues; in other ways, very different. Revitalization is great, but will the investment pay off. Tourism is one of those small economic boosts that benefit from revitalization, but is Greeenville a place that people got to visit for a weekend? One of the things that hold cities like Greenville and Lynchburg back is their relative isolation from major travel corridors. My observation is just that- and it doesn't mean I'm right, but making judgements about things that are very unlikely or are financially extravagant (because it will take that to get a minor league team outside of the Rookies) is pretty reasonable.

A great way to make something happen is to land a company that has ~ 1000 jobs and relies on local vendors as suppliers. Maybe developing a core competency in medical equipment manufacturing could be part of that. Charlottesville, VA has pursued that with some success, partnering with engineering and medical divisions of UVa. Things happen when jobs are produced; amenities come later.
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