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Old 01-06-2014, 07:30 PM
 
467 posts, read 457,640 times
Reputation: 84

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post
the recovery has a good amount of luck to it (although different play types have vastly different recovery outcomes so it isn't all random)

however, the ability to hold on isn't luck .... it's a fundamental skill to the game

nothing cheap about it - offensive players work on protecting the ball and defensive players work on knocking it loose .... both are skills

just like there are offensive players more prone to putting the ball on the ground, there are defenders that are more prone to striping it away .... it's not simple luck

how many tries would you advocate the cowboys get to try the FG in this example?


This play was a FG attempt by Seattle that TN converted into a TD to end the half - should Seattle get to call a mulligan

ok well it isn't "skill" to hold on to the ball when you get hit in a certain way. ball is going to come out certain percentage of the time if you are hit hard enough or defnsive players are grabbing at your hands and arms.

i don't think can compare screwups on FG and punts to fumble turnovers,, you will also still more games with fumble turnovers being a deciding factor and rarely to see a game where punt/FG gaffes are deciding factor. so not appples to apples
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Old 01-06-2014, 07:31 PM
 
9,028 posts, read 16,426,519 times
Reputation: 6814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis. View Post
redneck boy have you ever watched a game where the offensive player dropped it with no hit by the defense period? You clearly don't watch the game very much. buy a tv before you run your mouth.

loosen up a little bit, you are far too eemotional about some stupid game.

all i'm saying is i think dropping the ball should just end the play and foward progress and on to next down. I'm cool with sack fumbles too
Sometimes defenders fall down leaving someone wide open.

Sometimes QBs throw interceptions with little pressure straight at a defender because the ball slips away.

Sometimes guys trip with a clear path to the endzone - should Brandon Browner and the Seahawks get a TD here? Clearly guys just sometimes fall when running and it's simply a matter of luck that kept him out of the end zone

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Old 01-06-2014, 07:33 PM
 
467 posts, read 457,640 times
Reputation: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by cry_havoc View Post
Francis, you do realize the whole forum is making fun of you?

I would just write this off as an idea other people dont share with you. You can sit here and argue with ALL the users of this forum but you are just going to come off badly.
ok let them laugh at me, football is just a game and I don't have opinions based on what i think others will approve of. i expected resistance, people don't like change. I think a lot of guys see fumbles as kind of the "manly" part of the game too as gay as that seems. lol

At least I'm talking about something unlike you who is just here to henpeck me apparently.
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Old 01-06-2014, 07:37 PM
 
467 posts, read 457,640 times
Reputation: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post
Sometimes defenders fall down leaving someone wide open.

Sometimes QBs throw interceptions with little pressure straight at a defender because the ball slips away.

Sometimes guys trip with a clear path to the endzone - should Brandon Browner and the Seahawks get a TD here? Clearly guys just sometimes fall when running and it's simply a matter of luck that kept him out of the end zone
ok none of this is a change of possession. an easy change of possession. that is what i'm talking about b/c you only get so many possessions in football and only so many games in a season.

I think the CLemson SC game would have been far more exciting this year if there were not two turnovers on punt return fumbles that also set up SC for short yardage to score. I'd be cool with a penalty for a dropped ball, back them up 5 or 10 yards from where they drop it, just don't see why it is a turnover.

i'm still going to watch regardless. lol
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Old 01-06-2014, 07:40 PM
 
9,028 posts, read 16,426,519 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis. View Post
ok well it isn't "skill" to hold on to the ball when you get hit in a certain way. ball is going to come out certain percentage of the time if you are hit hard enough or defnsive players are grabbing at your hands and arms.
This is absolutely false - ball security is absolutely a skill

You say a "certain percentage" - yet stats clearly show that the actual percentage varies by players and there is a distribution just like any other sample set with a middle point and then deviations in both directions from that point

Guys like Dave Krieg fumbled like mad - many times unforced ..... those plays shouldn't just stop, they should go on ........ a QB that holds onto the ball should be rewarded for that and shouldn't have his skill in holding on the ball diminished just because a guy like Dave Krieg can't hang onto the ball

The skill is in shrinking that percentage number as much as possible

Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis. View Post
i don't think can compare screwups on FG and punts to fumble turnovers,, you will also still more games with fumble turnovers being a deciding factor and rarely to see a game where punt/FG gaffes are deciding factor. so not appples to apples
why?

they are turnovers - in that seattle example the fumbled snap led to a turnover that was returned by the titans 97 yards for a TD as the half expired .... seattle was attempted the FG there because time was running out

in the Romo example that was absolutely the deciding factor as it was a chip shot FG with time expiring and cost them a playoff game because he fumbled the ball without any pressure or unusual circumstances

in the seattle one it created a 10 point swing going into half - you don't think that is meaningful?

you can't argue for discounting one type of "lucky" unforced fumble and then try to uphold the same exact type of play

what is the difference between fumbling the snap without pressure on a game winning FG and losing the game, a guy fumbling the snap on a FG attempt where the other team recovers and runs it back for 7 creating a 10 point swing and your "more deciding factor" of a guy simple losing control of the ball at the 20 where it's recovered by the other team

you discount two examples where games were either directly decided or that created a clear 10 point impact but hold up one as an example where all that was really impacted was field position and momentum
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Old 01-06-2014, 07:42 PM
 
9,028 posts, read 16,426,519 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis. View Post
ok none of this is a change of possession. an easy change of possession. that is what i'm talking about b/c you only get so many possessions in football and only so many games in a season.

I think the CLemson SC game would have been far more exciting this year if there were not two turnovers on punt return fumbles that also set up SC for short yardage to score. I'd be cool with a penalty for a dropped ball, back them up 5 or 10 yards from where they drop it, just don't see why it is a turnover.

i'm still going to watch regardless. lol
how is a QB throwing an easy interception on a ball that gets away not a change of possession?

a player falling down with a clear path to the endzone is kind of a change in possession and it doesn't return the ball to the other team as it would with the score and it maintains possession .... either way though, it's still "luck" and a significant impact that isn't "forced"
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:12 PM
 
467 posts, read 457,640 times
Reputation: 84
ok well "fumble luck" is an expression, never heard luck attached to your other exmaples

i didn't see much skill in those 3 SC fumble reocvoeries, and one they just hacked our QB's hands whose foward progress had already been stoppped. i suck at football but i could hack some guy's hands

i just rather see defenses have to stop an offense on downs or get an interception to get the ball back.

if the rules were consistent it seems like a ball would still be live ball after it hits the ground on incomplete pass, if a ball is still live after a offense player drops it on the ground.
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Howard County, MD
2,223 posts, read 2,994,747 times
Reputation: 3365
How many stupid rule change proposal threads are we gonna have?
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:28 PM
 
Location: Englewood, Near Eastside Indy
8,340 posts, read 14,097,157 times
Reputation: 5958
I've been thinking more about this, and i think we should also elimimate incomplete passes when a defender deflects a pass. Football is more fun to watch when the game isnt stopped by a deflected pass. My proposal is this. If a defender deflects a pass, the ball will be spotted 5 yards ahead of where the deflection occured. The benefits are two fold. One, it takes away the unfair advantage an unskilled defensive player has to just hit a ball away from a receiver. I suck at football, but even i can stick my arm up and hit a ball. Two, more points.
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:34 PM
 
467 posts, read 457,640 times
Reputation: 84
A deflected pass is a play on the ball. It isn't falling on a loose ball that came out b/c the guy just dropped it or you hacked his hands or your hit on him was fortunate to get him to drop it.

so your attempts to ridicule me fail.

A delfected ball also isn't leading to a change of possesin and you hicks seem to be missing my entire pooiont when you come up with "analogies" that have nothing to dow ith change of posession. I'm talking about the threshold for change of posession needs to be high. If games were twice as long this wouldn't be a big issue for me but you have no so many posessions in football.

You could still have the wonders of the "forced" fumble without it being a turnover,....it still stops foward progrss.

at the very least, the hacking at the hands type of "forced" fumbles shouldn't lead to a turnover. just b/c football is a contact sport doesn't mean it has to let any kind of contact go
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