Where are all the Science Majors? (biology, benefits, organic chemistry, chemistry)

[Braunwyn]

Originally Posted by user_id

What was the purpose of mentioning that industry does not hold your hand if not to make a statement about hand holding at the university level?

I mention it due to complaining posts. If personality is playing a role it's not going to get any better when attempting to enter industry. It's just as, if not more, difficult in industry.

Okay, so the issue here is that you have a bad habit of over generalizing your very limited personal experience (which seems to be oddly common with science students...)You asserted that "there is little hand holding to be had in industry", not "there is little hand holding in the company I work for".

Perhaps you skimmed my post. I stated "Ime, for whatever it's worth, there is little hand holding to be had in industry." I noted it as an anecdote to be taken as such. I think I was pretty clear.

Regardless, it is different in many other companies. There are numerous theories/strategies in organization behavior, but oddly people tend to think businesses all work the same way. And you are again making a general comment that is not true, if companies only hired people that were "self-starters" and created a sort of sink or swim environment they would be in trouble. The majority of the labor pool does not have personalities that do well in this environment. Although, you can certainly find this environment in some corporations.

Again, I can only draw on what I've seen thus far, but that's what I see - self-starters. Self-starters from every uni, culture, corner of the planet. They are not only good at science, but socially maneuvering themselves around.

Anyhow, each corporation has its own culture as a result trying too generalize your experience from one to others makes no sense at all. If there is a mismatch between a workers personality type and the corporate culture the worker is rejected very quickly. Unfortunately most workers don't understand this, when they get rejected they often misinterpret it. It sounds like you found a good match, but I doubt MSChemist would do well in the same environment. If he was to try to find a job in science he would need to find a bit more nurturing environment. I don't know chem companies that well, but from what I know 3M has such an environment.

I have little doubt corporate cultures vary. I also have little doubt that sacrifice is going to be a component. Be it relocation, time investment, or social networking. Each individual is going to have to figure that out for career success.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by Braunwyn

If personality is playing a role it's not going to get any better when attempting to enter industry. It's just as, if not more, difficult in industry.

So, right before you claim that you are speaking of personal anecdotes you make a general statement about industry. Talking about "industry" as if its some homogeneous entity is worthless, each corporation has a different culture.

Anyhow, you seem to believe that people with more introverted, passive, etc personality types are at a disadvantage when it comes to "industry". But why? Because some corporate cultures and/or department cultures reject these types? There are also corporate/department cultures that reject aggressive extroverts.

The business world knows how to utilize a variety of personality types. If a large number of businesses rejected those that are introverted and passive, it would create a huge opportunity for the first company that figured out how to utilize these folks (as it would be able to get these people cheaply in relation to their talent).

Originally Posted by Braunwyn

Perhaps you skimmed my post. I stated "Ime, for whatever it's worth, there is little hand holding to be had in industry." I noted it as an anecdote to be taken as such. I think I was pretty clear.

I read the post, but I have no idea what "ime" means. Its it suppose to be some internet-speak?

Originally Posted by Braunwyn

Again, I can only draw on what I've seen thus far, but that's what I see - self-starters. Self-starters from every uni, culture, corner of the planet. They are not only good at science, but socially maneuvering themselves around.

Well...no..that is not what you can "only draw" from, that is merely what you've decided to draw from. You could, if you wanted an informed view, read about organizational behavior.

Originally Posted by Braunwyn

I have little doubt corporate cultures vary. I also have little doubt that sacrifice is going to be a component. Be it relocation, time investment, or social networking.

Sacrifice of what exactly? One in general cannot sacrifice their core personality, if a company requires that they they are X when they are ~X there is little they can do about it.

Social networking is not a requirement to finding a good job. Its merely the preferred mode by those that possess the ability to socialize well. Generally people that succeed are those that play on their strengths, in the case of social networking often people with rather mediocre talent get hired/promoted because they are very socially apt. This sort of thing tends to frustrate those that are not as socially apt, as they see someone very mediocre getting hired/promoted over others that are more talented. People with poor social skills merely need to find their strengths and play on them in similar ways.

Anyhow, my general point, as I said previously, is that much of what you are saying is very much oriented around your particular personality type. Its in no sense a general formula for success. Furthermore, if people with different personality types tried to follow the advice, it would likely do them more harm than good. If someone is having trouble in the job market, I think the first thing they need to is have an honest conversation with themselves about their strengths and weaknesses. But, amusingly this advice is just as poisoned as yours. Admitting weakness and having an accurate self-image is much easier for some than others. At the end of the day there is no general purpose advice that is effective and those that lack appropriate individualized mentorship often have trouble in life, that is why one's socio-economic status is largely determined by the socio-economic status of your parents.

[MSchemist80]

Originally Posted by user_id

Running around telling everyone not to major in science is rather irresponsible though. It demonstrates a complete failure to take responsibility for your current predicament and ignores the fact that many students are very talented in science and can have great careers in it.

You better believe i am going to do everything in my power to keep people from getting scammed by science. Science is a used car lot where customers are getting cheated and sold unsafe vehicles. I sure as heck am going to drive business away from there.


You keep saying I am an aberration in the data and everyone else who I know are exceptions to the rule and everyone who agrees with me on this forum are also either exceptions or talentless hacks and place your blind faith in the BLS data and companies ability to hire the best qualified scientists.

I might not have the resources to conduct and publish an official study but I sure as heck can make observations. The exceptions are the people who have good careers in science. Some of the best potential scientists I know couldn't leave the field fast enough after having their lives nearly ruined. I know of 1 possibly 2 people out of dozens who went or tried to go into science that didn't have their careers or attempted careers end badly.

Science was doing pretty bad before, but now with the recession, outsourcing, and H1b someone would have to be completely insane or self-destructive to go into science. The risks out weigh the potential rewards, which aren't very great to begin with, by orders of magnitude.

[Braunwyn]

Originally Posted by user_id

I read the post, but I have no idea what "ime" means. Its it suppose to be some internet-speak?

If you didn't know what it meant, you should have simply asked from the get go. Ime= in my experience. I suppose this fits well with the conversation, tho. Some people don't need to be told to ask, they just ask. For others, it's not so simple.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by Braunwyn

If you didn't know what it meant, you should have simply asked from the get go. Ime= in my experience.

When I see what appears like a random sequence of letters I just assume its a typo of sorts. But you clarified it, so its a non-issue. I'm just not sure why'd you expect people in general to know what it meant....

Originally Posted by Braunwyn

I suppose this fits well with the conversation, tho. Some people don't need to be told to ask, they just ask. For others, it's not so simple.

Actually it does! But not the way you suggested, instead of taking the issues of personality type and organization behavior seriously you take it as an opportunity to insult me.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by MSchemist80

You better believe i am going to do everything in my power to keep people from getting scammed by science. Science is a used car lot where customers are getting cheated and sold unsafe vehicles. I sure as heck am going to drive business away from there.

You are free to be as irrational as you like and to behave as irresponsibly as you like, giving your family members bad advice has no effect on me though.

Originally Posted by MSchemist80

You keep saying I am an aberration in the data and everyone else who I know are exceptions to the rule and everyone who agrees with me on this forum are also either exceptions or talentless hacks and place your blind faith in the BLS data and companies ability to hire the best qualified scientists.

If you think that you're not reading what I'm saying. The people that fail to do well in science largely either:

1.) Have no real talent in science
2.) Have yet to figure out how to navigate the job market in a way that works for their particular personality.
3.) Have mental disorders that make them bad fits for science careers.

I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt and assumed its either 2 or 3. If true, then you will encounter the same issues in many other careers, especially the male dominated ones you are mentioning. If anything Science is a better fit for more passive folks than finance or business.

Originally Posted by MSchemist80

Some of the best potential scientists I know couldn't leave the field fast enough after having their lives nearly ruined.

As I said to the other poster, there are plenty of talented people that lacked good mentors and are not socially apt at performing the typical job hunting advice you find on forums/articles. For some of these people the natural reaction is to run run run, for others its to rethink matters. Which action is done depends partly on personality and partly on your friends/family. I'm suggesting you do the latter, so far you've seemed to do little but whine and complain.

[Braunwyn]

Originally Posted by user_id

When I see what appears like a random sequence of letters I just assume its a typo of sorts. But you clarified it, so its a non-issue. I'm just not sure why'd you expect people in general to know what it meant....

Well, we've had a few conversations over the past year. I use "Ime" often enough. That would be a pretty consistent typo on my part.

Actually it does! But not the way you suggested, instead of taking the issues of personality type and organization behavior seriously you take it as an opportunity to insult me.

It's a simple point. Take it as an insult if you must, but it's fitting. If you spend time on forums then you're going to be exposed to internet acronyms. To me, it's common sense to wonder what the heck people mean when I see them. But, maybe it's not a curiosity for some due to personality type. You tell me.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by Braunwyn

Well, we've had a few conversations over the past year. I use "Ime" often enough. That would be a pretty consistent typo on my part.

It's a simple point. Take it as an insult if you must, but it's fitting. If you spend time on forums then you're going to be exposed to internet acronyms. To me, it's common sense to wonder what the heck people mean when I see them. But, maybe it's not a curiosity for some due to personality type. You tell me.

Do you seriously believe that I remember whether you've used "ime" in the past or not? Anyhow, whether or not you are exposed to "internet acronyms" depends on the demographics of the people you are conversing with. It should not be surprising that some people aren't exposed to them much. Regardless, I already told you. I read right over it, that is the natural reaction of the brain when its quickly scanning a piece of text that contains something odd. If you misspelled words, etc I would have more than likely not noticed as well.

But, you're right I have no curiosity about internet lingo. I'm not sure whether its a personality issue though, more so a distaste for prolishness.

[Braunwyn]

Originally Posted by user_id

Do you seriously believe that I remember whether you've used "ime" in the past or not? Anyhow, whether or not you are exposed to "internet acronyms" depends on the demographics of the people you are conversing with.

Well, I was introduced to them on internet forums. It's not uncommon.

It should not be surprising that some people aren't exposed to them much. Regardless, I already told you. I read right over it, that is the natural reaction of the brain when its quickly scanning a piece of text that contains something odd. If you misspelled words, etc I would have more than likely not noticed as well.

But, you're right I have no curiosity about internet lingo. I'm not sure whether its a personality issue though, more so a distaste for prolishness.

Baloney. The acronym was followed by what ever that's worth. You weren't curious about that disclaimer because, as you state, you were skimming the post. This lead to misunderstanding on your part. Rather than recognizing it, you're in for a full two-step dance. Again, fitting for this thread.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by Braunwyn

You weren't curious about that disclaimer because, as you state, you were skimming the post. This lead to misunderstanding on your part. Rather than recognizing it, you're in for a full two-step dance. Again, fitting for this thread.

It had nothing to do with curiosity, in order to be curious or incurious about something you first have to be aware of it. Regardless, you are rather oddly making this into something rather silly. Its real simple, you used some internet lingo I was not aware of and I unconsciously skipped right over it. A natural response, if you want to "blame" me for the misunderstanding then do it. Does not bother me at all. But instead of simply telling me what you meant by "ime", you decided to respond with an underhanded insult. Of course, you do this sort of thing often as you seem to get offended easily.