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1. A.Many people start college, drop out, and finish later, sometimes much later. Furthermore, there is no way to predict who will drop out and who won't.
1. B: College is not just for job training. There are many jobs that require a college degree, but not a specific degree.
I will repeat, with emphasis this time, not everybody accumulates a ton of debt going to college. Community college can be done fairly inexpensively, so can many state colleges/universities.
2. I am shocked that you would recommend that 50% of kids not even attempt college.
3. "Reading" for a degree went out a long time ago.
4. Please provide some documentation about "watered down" degrees. You do not seem to have a much of an idea about what drug and alcohol counselors do if you think it doesn't require a degree.
5. I am in agreement about for-profit schools. I am glad to hear that the govt. is cracking down on some of them.
6. Savvy consumers, yes. The rest of it, no comment. Is "podunk town surrounded by cornfields" a slam on the University of Illinois? It is one of the best schools in the country. Again, it is not necessary to go heavily into debt to get a college education.
1. A.Many people start college, drop out, and finish later, sometimes much later. Furthermore, there is no way to predict who will drop out and who won't.
True. But, you can't deny that there are MANY A and B'ers who exist and who pretty much just wasted their time. They suffer years of economic servitude while servicing their debts and the taxpayer has to pick up the tab when they default on their loans.
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Originally Posted by Katiana
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1. B: College is not just for job training. There are many jobs that require a college degree, but not a specific degree.
The reason that 99% of people go is to get a job with the piece of paper that they obtained. If the studies that were pursued during this process add nothing to a person's skillset then it is a waste of time for most people. And, these entry-level jobs used to not require degrees and they should not now either.
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Originally Posted by Katiana
I will repeat, with emphasis this time, not everybody accumulates a ton of debt going to college.
Not everybody does. But, most do.
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Originally Posted by Katiana
2. I am shocked that you would recommend that 50% of kids not even attempt college.
With 50% (or even more in my opinion) of jobs in our economy not truly needing a degree and a good chance that these students will end up A or B'ers, then I without hesitation will counsel those kids to not go.
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Originally Posted by Katiana
4. Please provide some documentation about "watered down" degrees.
It is apparent everywhere I look. I saw it in my classes at Penn State even. There were students who couldn't do simple algebra or form a coherent thesis for an essay. More schools are opening and they are all taking more kids to meet the demand. People of lackluster intellectual pedigrees and abilities are "going to college" when they would have worked in a factory in past times. Of course this is will (and already has) watered down the bachelor's degree. Why are jobs that used to require a high school diploma now requiring bachelor's degrees? Why are jobs that used to require bachelor's degrees now requiring masters? Have the difficulties and duties of the jobs changed that much? Nope. It is the result of credential inflation and the watering down of said degrees.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana
You do not seem to have a much of an idea about what drug and alcohol counselors do if you think it doesn't require a degree.
My best friend is a drug and alcohol counselor. She says all you need to know how to do is work with people and inspire them toward health. That takes people skills and charisma - not a degree.
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Originally Posted by Katiana
6. Savvy consumers, yes. The rest of it, no comment. Is "podunk town surrounded by cornfields" a slam on the University of Illinois? It is one of the best schools in the country.
No. I'm talking about the numerous lower-tier universities that will let anybody in, take their money, impart a so-so education and then spit them out into the world with no real job prospects. Is a political science graduate from Edinboro University of Pennsylvania going to be able to do anything with that piece of paper? If the jobs or the opportunities are not there then why embark upon such an expensive (and potentially disastrous) course?
I will repeat, with emphasis this time, not everybody accumulates a ton of debt going to college. Community college can be done fairly inexpensively, so can many state colleges/universities.
I will repeat, with emphasis this time, not everybody accumulated a ton of mortgage debt buying a home before the real estate crash. However, the mortgage default and delinquency rates of a few (less than 10%) managed to cripple our economy. The current rate of students accumulating debt will be a problem in the future. For god sakes, even the department of education noted that half of the students who took out federally guaranteed student loans since 2007 made no principal payments toward their balance.
And if kids are not taking student loans, how are they financing college? The money has got to come from somewhere. Parents you say? You mean the ones who are woefully unprepared for retirement.
( see Most Americans still unprepared for retirement - survey - Mar. 9, 2010 Boomers Unprepared For Retirement - CBS Sunday Morning - CBS News)
How much money do you see a liberal arts graduate making after graduating from the Unversity of Oz?
I will repeat, with emphasis this time, not everybody accumulated a ton of mortgage debt buying a home before the real estate crash. However, the mortgage default and delinquency rates of a few (less than 10%) managed to cripple our economy. The current rate of students accumulating debt will be a problem in the future. For god sakes, even the department of education noted that half of the students who took out federally guaranteed student loans since 2007 made no principal payments toward their balance.
And if kids are not taking student loans, how are they financing college? The money has got to come from somewhere. Parents you say? You mean the ones who are woefully unprepared for retirement.
( see Most Americans still unprepared for retirement - survey - Mar. 9, 2010 Boomers Unprepared For Retirement - CBS Sunday Morning - CBS News)
If you still have problems, please refer to this link. Makes it very easy.
Again, this thread is not about mortgages. Nor is it about retirement. There is a retirement forum to discuss those issues. My computer doesn't do videos well, so I will not be watching it.
I don't know how all students pay for their college. My parents paid for all of mine and my brother's. DH and I paid for the vast majority for our daughters'; each had a scholarship, one was better than the other. Both worked some as well, and one was an RA for a while.
Again, this thread is not about mortgages. Nor is it about retirement. There is a retirement forum to discuss those issues. My computer doesn't do videos well, so I will not be watching it.
I don't know how all students pay for their college. My parents paid for all of mine and my brother's. DH and I paid for the vast majority for our daughters'; each had a scholarship, one was better than the other. Both worked some as well, and one was an RA for a while.
I know this is not about mortgages. I know this is not about retirement. However, Those Who Forget History Are Doomed to Repeat It
...and I only point out the mortgage crisis, because of its similarities.
1. People advocating that everyone should be able to get a mortgage for a home without understanding the implications--> Society advocating that everyone should be able to get a college degree without understanding the implications
2. Unsubstantial claims of how much homes would appreciate and their worth. --> Unsubstantial claims of how much college degree holders will make after graduation and the value of their degree.
3. Growing numbers of people who were unable to pay their mortgages and asked for more government intervention --> Growing number of students who are unable to pay their student loans and asking for more government debt-forgiveness plans.
So seriously, do you still want to keep continuing on this path? Do we seriously have to wait till everything comes tumbling down?
I don't know how all students pay for their college. My parents paid for all of mine and my brother's. DH and I paid for the vast majority for our daughters'; each had a scholarship, one was better than the other. Both worked some as well, and one was an RA for a while.
I saw a segment with a financial advisor recently. He said that you should borrow no more than the average salary of your first ten years for schooling. So, if you think you will average $50,000 a year over your first ten years then you should have no more than $50,000 in loans when you graduate. Good luck averaging $50,000 a year with a generic liberal arts degree though.
This is an absurd argument. If you insist on defining "college" within the narrow confines that our society has rigidly constructed for "college", then, of course, it is not possible nor even desirable for everyone to go. No point arguing whether you can seat a million people into a thousand fixed and unalterable chairs.
But if, on the other hand, you define "college" as a broad ideal, encompassing a universality of advanced and open-ended education, without putting artificial limits on it and calling it "Penn State", then it is a simple matter to construct a system that will accommodate it. Just do it.
President Obama recently emphasized the importance of a college-educated workforce. He stopped short of, yet alluded to, the popular goal of many educational leaders of all children going to college.
What would the unintended consequences be if this goal were achieved? It is hard to imagine that anyone would want to work as a cashier at Walmart, a truck driver, a construction worker, or work any other job that does not currently require an advanced degree.
It's time to stop the rhetoric and PC statements and focus on the goal of providing opportunity. This involves a structure that allows the learner to pursue the education and training necessary that matches their ability, aptitude, motivation and interest with the needs of society.
For many this may have little or nothing to do with college.
Well, don't know what others have said yet, but basically it just means the bar will move up for any given job description, and give the colleges yet more leverage on people, despite them being a third party to the employment contract.
Sure I'm for upper education for everyone, as long as everyone can go to the best school that they test out for, regardless of their ability to pay for it. In short, if it's an extension of public education. Heck I might have been able to go to Harvard under a deal like that, LOL!
Even so, you still can't stop striation. There will always be 1st Tier, 2nd Tier etc.
Anyway, if your interest is in leveling society, probably can't be done. If you interest it to intimate that "college ain't for everyone", well probably true.
But no matter how you slice it, there's a fairly strong correlation between education level and economic attainment, and further it's an elitist game with higher ranked schools giving access to better connections, etc.
The best Law, Consulting, Medical firms etc. all recruit preferentially from the better schools.
So's no matter what you do that won't likely change.
So in the end about what will happen is the Janitor will need a four year degree.
Just read some of these threads and go into the parenting forum and read.
There are tons of college grads living at home with mom and dad because they think, because of that almighty degree, they deserve a better job than McDonald's or Walmart.
There is going to be more and more grads living at home and not working at all because the degree is in a useless field where there is no demand.
There are going to be more and more older parents supporting their college educated adult children into retirement while struggling in the economy themselves.
There is no need for so many college graduates. At this point in time we are glutted with grads but there are no jobs.
That's part of the problem with entering college straight out of high school. Young adults haven't been in the real world at all and have no idea of where the demand is, so they choose a field that they like but has no real world use.
I do not understand why high school grads don't spend a couple years in those menial jobs that they would get right out of college anyway, save their money and learn how to live within a budget and on their own, THEN go to college with a useful degree in mind, or go to trade school and make more money than if they went to college, without owing the rest of their lives.
Parents are to blame for this. If Junior doesn't go straight to college after high school, parents are afraid they will look like a failure to their peers who send their kids. Parents like to brag they have so many kids in college. Kids aren't encouraged to spend a couple years out in the world, and they aren't encouraged to learn a trade. Parents would rather take the adult children back in and support them AFTER COLLEGE than to turn them out to learn how to support themselves first.
President Obama recently emphasized the importance of a college-educated workforce. He stopped short of, yet alluded to, the popular goal of many educational leaders of all children going to college.
What would the unintended consequences be if this goal were achieved? It is hard to imagine that anyone would want to work as a cashier at Walmart, a truck driver, a construction worker, or work any other job that does not currently require an advanced degree.
It's time to stop the rhetoric and PC statements and focus on the goal of providing opportunity. This involves a structure that allows the learner to pursue the education and training necessary that matches their ability, aptitude, motivation and interest with the needs of society.
For many this may have little or nothing to do with college
This and many of the posts which follow it have what I regard as a myopic attitude. There are series of assumptions built into what you saying.
For example, this kind of thinking assumes that the economic pie stays the same size. We have a "zero-sum" economy, so someone's gain is someone's elses loss. According to your thinking there are only so many jobs out there in the economy that we need college graduates to fill. Once, this number is reached, the only way college graduates can obtain employment is to take other, lower-skilled jobs such as dishwasher or truck driver.
This is a baseless and ignorant assumption to make.
The GDP grows annually and is even growing a little bit right now with a recession going on. A growing GDP means that the number of jobs at all levels is numerically increasing. It may not grow at a high enough rate to compensate for all the new people entering the labor force at one time, but it is increasing. Once the recession ends, you'll see exactly what I am talking about and the demand for demand for people with all types of skills will increase.
However, it gets more involved than what I have just said. Has it occurred to you that if more educated people are hired than overall GDP may increase simply as a result of that fact? We educate people because experience has shown that educated people do the job better than uneducated people. A new computer scientist may invent a new type of software that reduces operating costs in a financial services business by 15%. A new MBA graduate may come up with a means of increasing sales by 6% without increasing company's costs in the process. A new accountant may save management endless hours that they used to spend trying to do budgeting without an expert. A new engineer may patent an invention that makes mining a much safer and simpler operation.
College graduates do something that non-college graduates seldom do when they cannot find work. They set up a business. I know this because its exactly what I did. I employ 1 full time and two part-time people in my business currently. These are jobs that wouldn't exist if I had not gone to college.
I feel differently about higher education that you and many others do. Higher education isn't about taking the top 5% of American society and giving them a pathway to the "gravy train". The justification for the billions and billions of dollars that America spends annually on college is the effect that is has on our overall economy. I would submit that the reason America leads the rest of world in innovation, research, and development is because we have so many people in college.
During a recession, you will find college graduates waiting on tables, doing construction work, and driving trucks. However, the difference is that when the recession ends, the college graduate will leave waitressing and take a job commensurate with his/her skills. The person without a college degree will be waiting on tables forever.
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