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Ummm... These colleges you say, which "innovate", and introduce new advancement...
...Are they coming from tier-1 colleges or tier-4 colleges?
Having a degree in engineering, and having developed software for very large software companies, do you think the majority of these fellows (who issue technology patents, trust me I know...) had a problem understanding basic concepts during their college classes?
Sorry to say, the students I tutored from your lower-tiered colleges will not be introducing any new technology patents anytime soon. They still have difficulty understanding basic high school concepts. (Not sure what college accomplished if you graduate and still have problems with basic grammar and math skills?) And when the recession lifts, they will still be jobless or working in the service-sector, because there are brighter high school students that have firmer grasps of math, science and grammar skills than some of these "attendance-based" college graduates.
You employ some "interesting reasoning" here. First, you talk about tier 1 and tier 4 colleges. I would submit that if a college offers an engineering program that is accredited, the quality of its graduates are satisfactory to work as engineers.
Any statistics to support your notion that students who graduate from tier 4 schools don't patent inventions? What is your criteria for dividing the schools into 1,2,3 and 4? Look, I'm not saying there is absolutely nothing to what you are saying. I am saying, I'm unable to simply take your word for what I think are some extremely broad statements.
There is a sort of "elitism" I see evolving America today that I'm not happy about. It takes the form of people like yourself who insist that a segment of our country is not educable. Others will say baseless crap like "90% of the people in college shouldn't be there". Honestly, when I hear this kind of stuff, I wonder if there is some ulterior motive at work. I think there are people in any field: law; medicine; business; or engineering who would prefer to keep the competition down. Less competition means more money for the people who did make it through the program.
Finally, here are some actual statistics on what education and a college degree does in terms of income for a graduate. These statistics are from the United States Bureau of Census. They only go up through 1999, so I'd like to see what has happened since. However, the numbers we do have show the following:
1. The average person with a BS degree earns substantially more than someone with only a high school diploma.
2. The average person with an MS degree earns substantially more than someone with only a BS degree.
3. The average person with a professional degree (M.D., J.D.) earns substantially more than someone with an MS degree.
Frankly, I'm more interested in this than someone like my uneducated uncle rambling on about how he sees PhD.'s driving taxi cabs.
My last comment is on the debt accumulated by going to college. I see a problem here. The problem is too many states are allowing universities and college to raise tuition beyond the rate of inflation without showing any good justification. As parents and as a society, we need to do more to fight tuition increases.
markg, I loved your post and agree with 99% of it. However, I disagree (somewhat) with this statement:
My last comment is on the debt accumulated by going to college. I see a problem here. The problem is too many states are allowing universities and college to raise tuition beyond the rate of inflation without showing any good justification. As parents and as a society, we need to do more to fight tuition increases.
Now I assume you are referring to state supported colleges and universities. I know in my state, the colleges are suffering from decreased tax revenues, and even beyond that, from decreasing state support for higher education, period, even in times of relative good. To keep the quality up, faculty have to be paid, facilities have to be kept up, etc. I know at the U of CO, in-state tuition was ridiculously low just a few short years ago. It has gone up recently. I would be very careful about fighting a tuition increase w/o researching it thorougly.
Originally Posted by jtur88
Your "how do you sell" scenario is a perfect illustration of how impossible everything becomes, when you construct your entire national culture on the single central concept that if profits can't be made doing it, it can't be done.
1. The average person with a BS degree earns substantially more than someone with only a high school diploma.
2. The average person with an MS degree earns substantially more than someone with only a BS degree.
3. The average person with a professional degree (M.D., J.D.) earns substantially more than someone with an MS degree.
Did you ever think that quite possibly the college degree holder earns more because they generally tend to be more intelligent to begin with, whether or not they have a degree? And when you average in all non-college graduates together, of course their salaries are going to be skewed. How many "can't even tie your shoes" people are mixed in with all those that only have a high school degree? Also, college has always been more accessible to the upper social-economic class? Don't you think those are very important factors to consider when looking at who makes more money.
Do you really think a piece of paper defines success? And why categorize people who are against flooding our streets with lower-tier liberal arts graduates as "snobs". Some of my best friends don't have high school degrees. And of my good friends, I can proudly say that I know some mechanics, an electrician, and a few heating and cooling folk (and they all make very good, money and none of them have a college degree). And having discussions similar to this, many of us share the same opinion.
A few decades ago, I don't recall every looking in the paper and seeing an article detailing how BAs or BSs had difficulty finding a job. And the college degree has most certainly been watered down.
Personally, I think the college degree has become more of a commercial product. The star on a sneetches belly.
If you want to pay Sylvester McMonkey McBean to give you a college degree, then be my guest.
Funny, how many of the people insinuating that I am a snob, are against for-profit schools. Personally, I don't see much difference. If the school has attendance-based grading standards, than no one will expect much from their graduates, meaning not many will hire them for high paying jobs.
Last edited by Thomas_Thumb; 08-27-2010 at 11:30 AM..
Your "how do you sell" scenario is a perfect illustration of how impossible everything becomes, when you construct your entire national culture on the single central concept that if profits can't be made doing it, it can't be done.
Profits? I think you mean if we can afford it. If society can't afford it, then it does become impossible to sustain it.
I would hardly say iwonderwhy2124 asking about a cost-effective solution is inflexible absolutism.
How did Thomas Jefferson or Mark Twain or Martin Luther King Jr. contribute to the nation's GDP?
You are bringing up a miniscule and select minority of history and culture altering individuals. They are not indicative of the vast majority of people who immerse themselves in the "arts". Most are going to be like "Stephanie" who got so-so high school grades, went to a so-so college and got a so-so degree (while banging half the guys in the dorm and playing beer pong like a pro).
We are going in circles: Here is what I think our society needs to do:
1. Make high school mean something again. Tighten up standards so that people coming out with a diploma can actually read, write, speak and have competency to enter the real world and do a real job. An individual only truly needs a degree for a demanding professional job that requires prior training.
2. Remove federal backing for student loans. Watch as the amount of students going to college drops and tuition rates will drop like a stone as well. The market is artificially inflated and propped up by the government.
Last edited by Renaldo5000; 08-27-2010 at 12:27 PM..
Do you really think a piece of paper defines success?
<snip>
Funny, how many of the people insinuating that I am a snob, are against for-profit schools. Personally, I don't see much difference. If the school has attendance-based grading standards, than no one will expect much from their graduates, meaning not many will hire them for high paying jobs.
Years ago (maybe 50 now), my father was in the market for a new car. The salesman told him the car he was buying wouldn't impress anyone. My father said, "I have a piece of paper from the University of Pittsburgh giving me a master's degree in engineering that I will use if I want to impress someone".
As for "attendance based grading", please give some examples of schools that do that. Specific schools. Thank you.
There is a sort of "elitism" I see evolving America today that I'm not happy about. It takes the form of people like yourself who insist that a segment of our country is not educable. Others will say baseless crap like "90% of the people in college shouldn't be there". Honestly, when I hear this kind of stuff, I wonder if there is some ulterior motive at work. I think there are people in any field: law; medicine; business; or engineering who would prefer to keep the competition down. Less competition means more money for the people who did make it through the program.
Strange, when did I ever say a segment of our country is not educable? I will say this again. I believe in CONTINUING EDUCATION. I believe that a big crux of the problem is our SECONDARY EDUCATION. And trust me, I have no problems competing with a tier-4 college graduate. I am in my early 30s, and could retire quite comfortably if I wanted to. I am only concerned with so many people going for a traditional liberal arts degree.
Seriously, how many art history majors do we need?
How many philosophy majors do we need?
How many Spanish majors do we need?
...
And worse, Spanish majors who really aren't that fluent in Spanish. Some of you language majors know what I am talking about.
I have no problem with someone who wants to study Spanish. But quit telling that person that if he graduates with a Spanish major in a lower-tier college, that he will be making more money than if he just saved that money and invested it wisely. Better yet, perhaps he could buy a few books and use that money to go to Spain or Mexico and learn it first hand.
I say this because, I knew someone who was a Spanish major in college. He really had a passion for learning Spanish, but he still had lots of difficulty speaking the language even after he graduated with his degree (which took him 5 years). He couldn't find much work with his degree, and was pretty depressed. When asking my advice, I told him that if he really wanted to learn Spanish, he should study abroad. He ended up going to Spain and after a few years became fluent. He now lives in Spain, and thanks me every time I call him.
Common Sense. Education is not confined in a traditional liberal arts college. Again, if the piece of paper does not help you get a job, then there are cheaper and better ways to educated oneself.
Strange, when did I ever say a segment of our country is not educable? I will say this again. I believe in CONTINUING EDUCATION. I believe that a big crux of the problem is our SECONDARY EDUCATION. And trust me, I have no problems competing with a tier-4 college graduate. I am in my early 30s, and could retire quite comfortably if I wanted to. I am only concerned with so many people going for a traditional liberal arts degree.
Seriously, how many art history majors do we need?
How many philosophy majors do we need?
How many Spanish majors do we need?
...
And worse, Spanish majors who really aren't that fluent in Spanish. Some of you language majors know what I am talking about.
I have no problem with someone who wants to study Spanish. But quit telling that person that if he graduates with a Spanish major in a lower-tier college, that he will be making more money than if he just saved that money and invested it wisely. Better yet, perhaps he could buy a few books and use that money to go to Spain or Mexico and learn it first hand.
I say this because, I knew someone who was a Spanish major in college. He really had a passion for learning Spanish, but he still had lots of difficulty speaking the language even after he graduated with his degree (which took him 5 years). He couldn't find much work with his degree, and was pretty depressed. When asking my advice, I told him that if he really wanted to learn Spanish, he should study abroad. He ended up going to Spain and after a few years became fluent. He now lives in Spain, and thanks me every time I call him.
Common Sense. Education is not confined in a traditional liberal arts college. Again, if the piece of paper does not help you get a job, then there are cheaper and better ways to educated oneself.
What is your issue with "lower-tier" colleges? Are you referring to the USNews rankings, which many think are bogus?
Your anecdotal examples do not help your cause.
So glad you could help your friend.
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