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I think that's the smartest way to do it--state school with in-state tuition, but only for bachelors degrees in certain fields (business-related, computers, or engineering) or an MD or selected MS's in certain areas (engineering, comp sci).
I'm skeptical about the value of non-technical liberal arts degrees. Also, more and more people are going to graduate and professional (JD, MBA) school in the hopes of being able to earn more money and often its a horrible investment.
Well many liberal arts degrees go to people who plan to get a masters or doctorate.
The problem with JD and MBA programs is there are a ton that let anyone in. There is a world of difference in going to a top 30 public law school compared to one that isn't ranked and private.
I agree that college is a scam for the most part. John and Bhaalspawn make real good points and I agree with them. Look I am college educated so what it is not a good option for most. Most kids have long term debt because of it. By the time you add the kids laid off or underemployed or just never found any work. The outlook for college would not be the neatest thing since wonder beard. What worked 15 or 20 years is pointless. Job are no longer stable but those loan payments can last 10 20 even 30 years. Nursing is becoming flooded as well as so many STEM jobs. The reasons you now seeing unemployed engineers and IT grads is easy. The entry level jobs are gone and the mid level jobs are leaving too. So even the STEM do not find jobs like that use to. Those jobs are gone to India and China. High level engineering and IT may stay here but new grads do not have the background in that. Colleges do sell the you will make more money over a life time. Most kids would not go to college if they had other options. But those other options have been eliminated.
Most kids would not go to college if they had other options. But those other options have been eliminated.
This is an excellent point. Part of the problem is that our politicians allowed businesses to send formerly middle class jobs that didn't require a college education such as manufacturing overseas. Then they allowed millions of poor immigrants to enter the U.S. to compete for jobs against the lower classes. The end result is that now just about everyone feels compelled to go to college.
In the meantime, we've imported hundreds of thousands of foreigners on H-1B and L-1 visas to drive down wages and to displace Americans from knowledge-based jobs that often require a college education. Now many of those displaced Americans are (surprise!) returning to college to retrain and re-educate for other fields, including graduate degrees that don't have the value colleges claim they have (law, MBA, etc.).
Global Labor Arbitrage is definitely one of the huge driving forces behind the higher education problem in this country. Basically, we, as a nation, are going to have to grow up at some point and face our real economic problems even if the solutions to them (tariffs, an end to the H-1B and L-1 visa programs, an end to mass immigration) are not touchy-feely and warm-and-fuzzy. Alternatively, we can just merge our nation's economy and average out our standard of living with that of the third world which is what we're doing now.
This is an excellent point. Part of the problem is that our politicians allowed businesses to send formerly middle class jobs that didn't require a college education such as manufacturing overseas. Then they allowed millions of poor immigrants to enter the U.S. to compete for jobs against the lower classes. The end result is that now just about everyone feels compelled to go to college.
In the meantime, we've imported hundreds of thousands of foreigners on H-1B and L-1 visas to drive down wages and to displace Americans from knowledge-based jobs that often require a college education. Now many of those displaced Americans are (surprise!) returning to college to retrain and re-educate for other fields, including graduate degrees that don't have the value colleges claim they have (law, MBA, etc.).
Global Labor Arbitrage is definitely one of the huge driving forces behind the higher education problem in this country. Basically, we, as a nation, are going to have to grow up at some point and face our real economic problems even if the solutions to them (tariffs, an end to the H-1B and L-1 visa programs, an end to mass immigration) are not touchy-feely and warm-and-fuzzy. Alternatively, we can just merge our nation's economy and average out our standard of living with that of the third world which is what we're doing now.
Yea you are exactly right. Here is what it comes down to: jobs. People go to college because they think that the college degree will get them that higher paying job. Right now the supply of those good paying jobs is decreasing and we aren't producing enough low wage jobs to employ everyone. For an employer/business everything comes down to COSTS. American labor is too costly.
Everything is more or less going to China or India. If you can't outsource the job then you just offshore the work by moving the entire business/division overseas. For the entrepreneur/business owner it is the best of both worlds. Very low cost unskilled labor (ie. china, developing nations), very low cost skilled labor (India) and an excellent shipping network to deliver your goods to anyone in the entire world. What more could you ask for?
Education at this point is almost entirely not relevant. Relative to other nations, american labor is too costly.
I know this because I am a business owner and I don't hire any Americans.
Oh and for those who say, "Well, if you don't hire any Americans, then who will buy your stuff?" The simple answer to this is: Chinese and Indians. Theres nearly 2.5 billion of them and only 300 million Americans, need I say more? Plus their economies are growing very fast while the USA is nearly stagnant.
Yea you are exactly right. Here is what it comes down to: jobs. People go to college because they think that the college degree will get them that higher paying job. Right now the supply of those good paying jobs is decreasing and we aren't producing enough low wage jobs to employ everyone. For an employer/business everything comes down to COSTS. American labor is too costly.
Also note that Environmental costs, the cost of labor regulations and other regulations, and the greater legal liability that comes from operating a business in the U.S. also adds to the costs. IMHO, those government regulations and protections are part of our national standard of living. Consequently, as part of the global race to the bottom our government will feel increasing pressure to roll back all of those regulations, reducing our standard of living.
Quote:
Everything is more or less going to China or India. If you can't outsource the job then you just offshore the work by moving the entire business/division overseas. For the entrepreneur/business owner it is the best of both worlds. Very low cost unskilled labor (ie. china, developing nations), very low cost skilled labor (India) and an excellent shipping network to deliver your goods to anyone in the entire world. What more could you ask for?
Education at this point is almost entirely not relevant. Relative to other nations, american labor is too costly.
I know this because I am a business owner and I don't hire any Americans.
Oh and for those who say, "Well, if you don't hire any Americans, then who will buy your stuff?" The simple answer to this is: Chinese and Indians. Theres nearly 2.5 billion of them and only 300 million Americans, need I say more? Plus their economies are growing very fast while the USA is nearly stagnant.
Businesses really don't have any choice and it's hard to blame businessmen for doing what they have to do to stay in business. If your competitor is doing it, you have to do it to. It's essentially similar to a tragedy of the commons situation. The proper blame for the foreign outsourcing rests squarely on the shoulders of our nation's politicians for allowing it. Also, our "no-think" free market dogmatist economists and pundits deserve blame for intellectually enabling our politicians and for intellectually disarming the American electorate.
Education at this point is almost entirely not relevant. Relative to other nations, american labor is too costly.
I know this because I am a business owner and I don't hire any Americans.
Oh and for those who say, "Well, if you don't hire any Americans, then who will buy your stuff?" The simple answer to this is: Chinese and Indians. Theres nearly 2.5 billion of them and only 300 million Americans, need I say more? Plus their economies are growing very fast while the USA is nearly stagnant.
This is delving into a topic for the Politics forum, but you touch on a good point: Americans simply want more money. Whether an individual American is worth it or not is not the point; too many Americans simply feel that many jobs and/or rates of pay are beneath them. Even those Americans that do not have a college degree. One of the reasons why imported labor, and immigrant labor, is lucrative is owed to the fact that these groups of people are more than willing to do the same job for less money. Even though they are being paid less money, they are still being paid more money than they would have been paid in their home country, and corporations get the same labor for a lesser price. It is a win-win situation. Except for Americans.
Businesses are only concerned with their bottom line. Nothing else. That is why you see lay-offs during times of economic growth or stability. It's called Capitalism for a reason, and if a company is not turning a profit at the rate predicted/desired, jobs are going to get cut or wages/hiring froze. What is really ironic here is that the same Politicians that support the American worker (Joe the Plumber, really?) are the same ones that support Big Business' "right" to cheap labor.
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Originally Posted by collegeguy35
Most kids would not go to college if they had other options.
I disagree. I am currently in my 30s and in college. When I went to college out of high school in the early 90s, the general sentiment seemed to be that kids were in school because they wanted to be there. They wanted to go into a specific field or, if anything, were simply interested in learning for the sake of knowledge. I talk to many of my classmates, most of whom are in the 18 to 22 age range. A handful have a specific direction, while the rest simply believe that college will translate into more $$$. Having a stable job; a decent paying job, is not the concern. Having more money, is. People my age are just happy to have a job, any job, so as long as it can pay the bills and put a few bucks in the pocket. Those jobs are out there, but these kids do not want them.
They are not willing to work their way up into management positions at restaurants (which, by the way, is not only totally possible, it also does not require a college degree. And restaurant jobs are a dime a dozen), for example. Hell, I dropped out of college the first time through because I was making good money working in a restaurant. I figured I was already in a "career" and the money was already decent. My decision to go back to school had nothing to do with the economy, by the way.
Kids don't want that. They want the prestige of a college diploma. And they want the perceived money that comes along with it. There are still other options, there always will be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhaalspawn
This is an excellent point. Part of the problem is that our politicians allowed businesses to send formerly middle class jobs that didn't require a college education such as manufacturing overseas. Then they allowed millions of poor immigrants to enter the U.S. to compete for jobs against the lower classes. The end result is that now just about everyone feels compelled to go to college.
In the meantime, we've imported hundreds of thousands of foreigners on H-1B and L-1 visas to drive down wages and to displace Americans from knowledge-based jobs that often require a college education. Now many of those displaced Americans are (surprise!) returning to college to retrain and re-educate for other fields, including graduate degrees that don't have the value colleges claim they have (law, MBA, etc.).
Global Labor Arbitrage is definitely one of the huge driving forces behind the higher education problem in this country. Basically, we, as a nation, are going to have to grow up at some point and face our real economic problems even if the solutions to them (tariffs, an end to the H-1B and L-1 visa programs, an end to mass immigration) are not touchy-feely and warm-and-fuzzy. Alternatively, we can just merge our nation's economy and average out our standard of living with that of the third world which is what we're doing now.
I totally agree with this post, however I will say that off-shoring and hiring H-1Bs is not going to change until a new crop of American business men and women redesign the American business model. Politicians sure as heck are not going to do a thing about it.
As for lowering standards to that of the Third World...is that necessary? How about just living within our means. Instead of a $35K car, buy at $15K model? Instead of a $5K 72" Plasma TV, buy a $400 36" HD. And so on. My ex GF has family in Ireland who work for less money than the average American. Yet, they have everything they need, some pretty nice stuff, and ironically, a larger house. They also take more vacations. They just do not waste money on things they do not need.
College may be a scam, it may not be. I stand fast to my other posts citing that at least colleges/universities did not start this "scam". I am not going to claim that they are innocent, as they are definitely reaping the rewards of a model created by someone else. To say that they are the scam, or the proprietors of it, is just false.
Everyone believes in their own reality. And, our perspective is based on that reality. My perspective is that anything is possible (within reason; building your own rocket to put you into orbit around the Earth is a lofty goal that probably will never happen. But then again, it can). A college degree or not is irrelevant. There are many people who will never put their degree to use, and there are many people who will accomplish great things without ever stepping foot onto a college campus. It is all about you, your initiative and drive.
People cite Bill Gates and Steve Jobs as two examples of what can be accomplished without a college degree. Actually, it was Jobs partner, Woz, who really created Apple. But anyways, these two are also examples of what can be accomplished when you really put yourself out there and give it all you got to make it happen. They more than likely would have accomplished the same even if they finished college. It is the person, not the degree.
Bhaalspawn I agree with your posts. They are almost always well done and to the point. Global labor arbitrage will drive down wages to that of the third world. The options have been eliminated for the most part. We lost tens of millions of manufacturing jobs paid well medical benefits ect. I known people who have worked their way up into management in restaurants no degree. But even major supermarkets make you have a college degree to get into management starting pay 21 to 25k not alot of cash. I have family members who worked into management in supermarkets years ago without a degeee. I met tons of kids over the years who would have not done college. If they would have had any other option.
Around 30% of the adult population has a college degree (bachelor's or higher). If I remember correctly (and someone correct me if I am wrong), only around 25% of jobs in America currently require a college degree of some sort. That number is projected to raise to 75% by 2050. Despite the projected rise, that is not the reality at the moment. If only 25% of jobs require a degree, then 75% do not. Hence, options.
People just do not want to see them. Do you want to work as a house painter? Why not? You can make decent to good money doing so. How about landscaping? Great money in that. My dad dropped out of college way back when, and made ends meet painting houses. He eventually started his own business. No degree necessary (although he did have to take a few courses at the local CC in order to pass the business license test). He wasn't rich, but he was definitely far from poor.
I know two people who started their own landscaping businesses (one was started by a former employer of the other). They are home owners, drive $50K trucks, own their own Bobcats and equipment, etc. Do you want to do that job? Why not? It pays good money. But you know what? It is backbreaking work, in the hot sun. You get sweaty, and dirty, and sore.
Relative to other nations, american labor is too costly.
I know this because I am a business owner and I don't hire any Americans.
Oh and for those who say, "Well, if you don't hire any Americans, then who will buy your stuff?" The simple answer to this is: Chinese and Indians. Theres nearly 2.5 billion of them and only 300 million Americans, need I say more? Plus their economies are growing very fast while the USA is nearly stagnant.
The tragedy is, we've known about this for 30 years! American labor did not become too costly overnight. China opened up in, 1978? The opening up of Asia, south asia happened decades ago.
We've had this walled off education strategy in America for the last 30 years. Let's just put up 14 foot high walls around our students. Don't tell them anything about the world. Just focus on those test scores. Focus on sports and athletics. Make sure the teacher unions are happy (I don't want to turn this into a thread about teacher unions). But there were a host of factors that have been focused on in education for the last 30 years. Unfortunately none of the focus was on what was happening over that wall.
-We could have geared up years ago. Instead of teaching to the test, or the lowest common denominator, teach to the top 10-20% and get them into the best science and engineering programs.
-Could have taught entrepreneurship. Esp now, when you can run a business off a laptop. There's no excuse why the cirriculum couldn't be 25% business/entrepreneurship based. A certain percent of highschoolers are going to be business oriented.
-None of the cirriculum is forward looking or projection based. Kids learn "history" about George Washington or Abraham Lincoln. When real "history" is the end of WWII. The US was dominate, but other countries are going to catch up with us. What are we going to do to prepare for a changing world?
Schools have failed miserably at providing kids with the answer to that question. Then they get shuttled off into this college scam. And they're paying 300% more than they were in 1980 for questionable degrees, as American labor has gotten more expensive vs the rest of the world.
-Could have taught entrepreneurship. Esp now, when you can run a business off a laptop. There's no excuse why the cirriculum couldn't be 25% business/entrepreneurship based. A certain percent of highschoolers are going to be business oriented.
This is another common myth that people have latched onto--that everyone or even most people can successfully start their own small businesses.
Last I checked, the overwhelming majority of small businesses end up failing in a couple years. Furthermore, it won't solve or fix our nation's economic problems. Instead we could end up being a nation filled with struggling small businessmen who cannot afford to purchase goods and services from other struggling small businessmen who in turn cannot afford to purchase goods and services from other small businessmen.
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