Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Honestly, even with scholarships I have quite a bit of debt, but I do know that my college connections and experience have paid off dividends in terms of personal development and $$$ (internships and internal jobs). That and with practically EVERY job that pays over minimum wage asking for several years of experience or a college degree, I don't think I could do anything other than go to school right after HS.
My view might be slightly skewed as Seattle has a high number of degree holders which also influences my decision to leave the wonderful PNW as soon as I graduate :'(.
I think college has become an *outrageous* scam in this country. It is *The* Scam going for generation x and y, no question in my mind.
A. The big difference between college and buying a car or home, is that other alternatives have been systematically eliminated in k-12. Kind of like walking onto the car lot. You're not encouraged to buy $8-12,000 cars. Even though they are safe, economical, have high dependabilty. In some ways they're better made than more expensive cars. You can't even take those cars for a test drive, or find out what they are like.
Instead, you're steered into buying an $18 k car. With bells and whistles you don't really need. Community college is laughed at, as below your potential. It's the 13th grade. Tech/vocational schools are sort of derided. Things like apprenticeships aren't really taught.
B. Job growth has not kept up with this explosion of student loans. What was job growth, net from 2000 to 2010? Anything? But look at this explosion of $$$$ loans.
C. The quality of education has been degraded. It's like buying a home that's almost hollow. Highschool grads can't even pass a basic military exam. Everything is so watered down and cheapened.
APNewsBreak: Nearly 1 in 4 fails military exam - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101222/ap_on_re_us/us_military_exam - broken link)
D. It's not really voluntary. There's so much social pressure to get into college. From teachers and administrators who rememeber a different era. To students. To media influences. It's very hard to dodge all of the influences.
E. Most kids are very inexperienced with money. What's the average 16 year old done financially? Babysat? Borrowed $1,500, $2,000 at most? Then they're expected to handle $40,000 or $60,000 or more in loans in a few years? In a very unpredictable economy? It's like handing the keys to a boat in rough water to an inexperienced sailor.
F. There's misinformation and half truths. There are lemon laws protecting car sales. There are consumer protections when you buy most things. You can't buy a home on a shaky foundation. But what do you hear as a highschool grad? All these half truths...."oh, there will be jobs". Oh, "you'll be successful". Oh, "just take this and you'll do well".
I think there's a difference between naive and impressionable 16 or 17 year olds, who believe everything they hear. And someone more mature and responsible (who's going to buy a house or car).
Plus there's so many flimsy degrees now...womens studies? Latino studies? Etc.
Your post is spot on John. College is definitely *THE* scam of the younger generation. Although college is beneficial for those who wish to become doctors, lawyers, teachers, and engineers, the fluff majors as you described are for the most part a big waste of time. I think is it outrageous for a 17 year old kid to be expected to pick a course of study, as they are seriously lacking real world experience, and many aren't informed what their employment prospects will be upon graduating.
Total educational loans should be capped at $30,000 for undergrads. That will make universities keep their prices honest and it will help protect the teenagers and young adults who may accept the loans without understanding the full long term ramifications. I weep for those who graduate with 100k or more in debt.
My advice to the younger crowd:
1. It's not what you know, it's who you know.
2. Avoid student loans whenever possible. If you must receive them, keep your total debt below $30k.
3. The most expensive school you get into won't necessarily be the best as far as the quality of education you receive. State schools offer a tremendous value, even the "lowly" Community Colleges.
Your post is spot on John. College is definitely *THE* scam of the younger generation. Although college is beneficial for those who wish to become doctors, lawyers, teachers, and engineers, the fluff majors as you described are for the most part a big waste of time. I think is it outrageous for a 17 year old kid to be expected to pick a course of study, as they are seriously lacking real world experience, and many aren't informed what their employment prospects will be upon graduating.
Total educational loans should be capped at $30,000 for undergrads. That will make universities keep their prices honest and it will help protect the teenagers and young adults who may accept the loans without understanding the full long term ramifications. I weep for those who graduate with 100k or more in debt.
My advice to the younger crowd:
1. It's not what you know, it's who you know.
2. Avoid student loans whenever possible. If you must receive them, keep your total debt below $30k.
3. The most expensive school you get into won't necessarily be the best as far as the quality of education you receive. State schools offer a tremendous value, even the "lowly" Community Colleges.
I would put a bunch of safeguards in place.
A. Before you even take the SAT or fill out one college enrollment application, you look at real (true!) employment statistics and starting salaries. Not half truths. Not fancy material from the college marketing dept (trumpeting $50,000 starting salaries for a weak major).
But yes....you'll learn. 70% of womens studies majors don't have a job in their major. 80% of psychology majors are making X. And break it down by geography. Break it down by city. If you can look at a street view of Google Earth, you should be able to look at college major and starting salary information the same way.
B. Offer much, much more real world experience to students. End this practice of loading up $$$$ debt to inexperienced, impressionable students. Ease the gap between doing babysitting and part time jobs to $50,000 loans. Part of the function of school should be easing this burden of risk. Stop putting all the risk on the student.
Let them travel for 2 years. When they're 17 or 19. Locking up kids for 12 years in a classroom (with other kids their own age) doesn't create the real world experience to handle high $$$ loans (in a volatile economy). Cap loans to a certain percent of starting salaries. Make payment periods easier. Right now, 17 year olds are almost like stunt pilots. Taking all the risk, being expected to handle all the twists and turns. If these degrees and majors are so hot (and valuable), then what's the objection to easing the risk?
C. You've got to look at real loan $$$$ data. Not this nebulous junk you hear...."Oh, you'll be successful." "There will be jobs". "Oh, everything will work out". Get k-12 out of the business of hand holding and into hard data.
I do some web work for GM and came across this post. I wanted to know if you have heard or thought about the GM College Discount? Any current college students or those who have graduated within the last two years qualify for the GM College Discount Program. All you need to provide is proof of enrollment in an associate, undergraduate, nursing or graduate degree program or a diploma dated no more than two years before you buy or lease. If you're elgible for the discount program you get the GM supplier discount price which is offered to preferred GM suppliers that’s below MSRP. Heres a link to compare MSRP to the supplier price. If you are interested in learning more, you can visit the webpage at [url]http://bit.ly/dqKjne[/url] or the Facebook page at [url=http://bit.ly/caU470]GM College Program - Company | Facebook[/url]. Hopefully this can benefit you!
I do some web work for GM and came across this post. I wanted to know if you have heard or thought about the GM College Discount? Any current college students or those who have graduated within the last two years qualify for the GM College Discount Program. All you need to provide is proof of enrollment in an associate, undergraduate, nursing or graduate degree program or a diploma dated no more than two years before you buy or lease. If you're elgible for the discount program you get the GM supplier discount price which is offered to preferred GM suppliers that’s below MSRP. Heres a link to compare MSRP to the supplier price. If you are interested in learning more, you can visit the webpage at http://bit.ly/dqKjne or the Facebook page at GM College Program - Company | Facebook. Hopefully this can benefit you!
Thanks,
Colleen
Umm...and for the discount, you'll make up for it in repairs and headaches. My mother has had three GM cars since 2000 (2 Chevy's and 1 Saturn) and they've spent more time in the shops getting repaired more than any other type of car I've seen! (I own a Chrysler; and before that I had a Ford, Honda & Mazda). She'll be listening to me and will buy a Korean car next most likely.
Umm...and for the discount, you'll make up for it in repairs and headaches. My mother has had three GM cars since 2000 (2 Chevy's and 1 Saturn) and they've spent more time in the shops getting repaired more than any other type of car I've seen! (I own a Chrysler; and before that I had a Ford, Honda & Mazda). She'll be listening to me and will buy a Korean car next most likely.
(Sorry for being off-topic btw)
Plenty of other auto makers who have this discount as well, not just GM. I got one through Nissan.
The college does not charge this price for the textbook, the bookstore does. Yes, there is a difference. Students are free to buy their books where ever they want, or, in some cases they can elect not to buy textbooks. You can only pay your tuition in one place. And, in a lot of cases the "college bookstore" is a privately owned independent operation that is not connected to the school, even if it is on campus.
Textbooks can be deducted on tax returns, although to my knowledge only if they are absolutely required for the course.
I will agree that tuition is pricey, but you need to separate the two: tuition is the cost of education, although tuition usually goes into the general fund. Fees cover subsidiary and supplemental items like lab usage, computer rooms, media centers, activity, etc.
One way to lower the cost of college would be to remove [most] fees and have a pay-as-you-go system. Look at your tuition bill, you are more than likely paying at least one fee for a service you do not or did not use.
Like all jobs, this is going to vary by location and length of service. But, I find it interesting that in a country where people don't question why, say, athletes can make millions of dollars a year, they do question why people in education make a little bit more than they do. On one hand, who cares! Why do you care? They all went to college, too, you know. And don't say it is because they don't do anything, or it is because they raise tuition so they can pay themselves more.
Secondly, you make it sound like all administrators are paid 6 figures. That is just false. Some, sure, all, no. Amazing benefits? You make it sound it is a bad thing.
Ugh. Like administrators, professors salaries vary widely. If you look at pay scales for average salary, you will see that those who are making six figures either work at the top universities, or they have twenty years experience. Or both. I believe that over 40% of all college profs have 20 years or more experience teaching. So, do they not deserve 6 figs?
These have nothing to do with the school. Students can live within walking distance in most cases or ride public transportation; they can create schedules that would free up time for employment (only taking classes on Tue and Thur, for example only taking morning classes so they can work the afternoon/evening). Generally, any "barring" are just restrictions that the student places on him/her self.
I disagree that most people attend college to get a degree that employers want. Well, young people anyways. Far too many high school students see college as a competition; getting the highest SAT/ACT scores and getting into the most prestigious schools. Plus, most want the degree that is going to bring in the most money. If you look at employment ads, the majority of ads want a degree-in anything. And even for science type jobs the exact subject the degree was earned in can vary. There are a few jobs where a specific degree in a specific major is required, though.
Adults (uh, those that are well into their 20s and beyond) are generally the ones that are going for specific degrees that employers want. This is primarily owed to the fact that they have hit a ceiling and getting a higher degree or a degree in a different subject is the only way to move up. MBAs and other professional degrees are a good example of this.
What is this new service you speak of? Direct education? The only way to really reduce the costs of higher education, at least for the moment, is to offer a bare-bones college education. By that I mean only offer the classroom experience and do away with everything else. But, on one hand this is what for-profit colleges do anyways, and on the other, this will only really appeal to those students that are well into adulthood and could care less, let alone use, a college rec. center/student union; athletics; free movie nights; Greek Life; career service center; etc.
Eventually, something will be done about high tuition, but in reality what will more than likely happen is that tuition will stabilize-not rise, or at least not as fast. Universities as an institution are in no threat, and won't be in the future, either.
Lot of common sense in your post. There are a lot of people way out of touch with reality and hate a college education for whatever reason. I agree that tuition will just stabilize and the tier 2/3 schools are the ones that will probably suffer. Right now there isn't much differentiation between where you got your degree. All of these schools that let anyone in are the ones that will soon suffer. A top 50 school that rejects so many kids isn't going to suffer much.
We care more about graduation rates, than if students are properly learning in high schools or colleges. We value the pieces of paper, more than the education.
Yup, thats exactly right. Hence the reason its important to make sure to test potential employee's skills before hiring them. Diplomas don't really mean anything anymore since there is lots of grade inflation. College is getting easy to pass. Plus you shouldn't discount people who don't have degrees. My best employees were those who were self-taught and had a passion for the subject.
Your post is spot on John. College is definitely *THE* scam of the younger generation. Although college is beneficial for those who wish to become doctors, lawyers, teachers, and engineers, the fluff majors as you described are for the most part a big waste of time. I think is it outrageous for a 17 year old kid to be expected to pick a course of study, as they are seriously lacking real world experience, and many aren't informed what their employment prospects will be upon graduating.
Total educational loans should be capped at $30,000 for undergrads. That will make universities keep their prices honest and it will help protect the teenagers and young adults who may accept the loans without understanding the full long term ramifications. I weep for those who graduate with 100k or more in debt.
My advice to the younger crowd:
1. It's not what you know, it's who you know.
2. Avoid student loans whenever possible. If you must receive them, keep your total debt below $30k.
3. The most expensive school you get into won't necessarily be the best as far as the quality of education you receive. State schools offer a tremendous value, even the "lowly" Community Colleges.
It's funny, I went to a podiatrist today. Talk about a world of difference in terms of degrees.....medicine, vs womens studies? Art history? It's totally laughable. One of them is like studying paper mache. Or how to fold a few pieces of paper and call it origami. The other is like studying how to build the Titanic.
Why would two students, equally driven, end up in such divergent areas? I don't think enough is explained of what actually goes in each profession. The schools are just too eager to get your $$$$. K-12 is too eager to push kids through the system, and test, test, test.
There also seems to be a major gap in terms of mentorship (low cost). There must be plenty of retired, or experienced professionals...in medicine, law, who could guide kids more cost effectively than these overpriced schools.
College tuition is rising faster than all inflation components.
Notice the stair-step pattern.... they raise tuition once every year.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
