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Old 02-12-2011, 02:55 PM
 
25,157 posts, read 53,831,934 times
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Those "who aren't meant to be there"? Why are they there? They had some ambition to get filled with wisdom, knowledge, and skills. Each person attains his/her education differently. If the college system wasn't constantly throwing itself a parade about how amazing it is then people wouldn't put the fallible and corrupt college system on a pedestal. One powerful unwritten policy at colleges is to not respect or acknowledge individuals or individual differences unless you are bending over backward for the sake of corrupt university policies and culture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Gatsby View Post
College is a rip off for those who aren't meant to be there. Using your basketball player analogy, not everyone is made for college, and they are the ones getting ripped off.
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Old 02-12-2011, 04:56 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
51 posts, read 361,491 times
Reputation: 43
Both sides of the argument have their valid points.

I remember in my career class, out professor showed us a nice graph from the Bureau of Labor Statistics from 2009. In both categories (unemployment and weekly earnings), those with advanced degrees made more money per week on average and were less unemployed than those without degrees. In this case, it is obvious that having that college degree will be useful in making more money and landing a job. So essentially, the less education you have, the lower your chances of finding employment.

Here is where the idea of "ripoff" comes in. Obviously, these statistics were general and took employment stats from ALL types of work. This means that even minimum wage jobs (e.g., being a barista at Starbucks) were considered. I'm sure many of us have come across retail workers who have degrees in sociology, psychology, English, etc. I think this is were the idea of "ripoff" is properly attributed. Those of us who go to college expect to get a job where we can apply our skills when, realistically, the only jobs available to those of us with a humanities/social science Bachelor's degree will be in retail or food service. This is why a lot of people feel cheated, especially those who took out loans to pay for their education. Why go through 4 years of school just to become a manager at JC Penny? Obviously there are exceptions to this rule; there are those who took advantage of resources at their school campus and are now working in decent jobs. However, many find themselves feeling scammed (imagine working as a barista while you know you have a PhD in Comparative Literature...ouch).

Let's compare the average salary of Psychology majors to Electrical Engineering/Computer Science:

Psychology: $42,231 (https://career.berkeley.edu/major/psych.stm)
EE/CS: $73,045 (https://career.berkeley.edu/Major/EECS.stm)

Quite a difference, right? This leads me to my following point: if you are going to college, major in something useful. If you look at the link for EE/CS, many of the job titles reveal that the already graduated students are actually applying their skills while in psychology, the titles are more diverse and not many of them appear to be applying their skills. Indeed if a student wants to do therapy (counseling) they either have to get their masters or a PsyD – a PhD would be more research focused. If you really want to see something funny – in the dark sense – you should look at other humanities/social science majors.



Those attending 4 year universities should be aware of this trend. Having a college degree is no doubt helpful in finding a job. Whether that be a job you want or can apply your skills to is dependent on your major and experience – although getting relevant experience within a well paying field is going to be tough as a humanities/social science major; its like a catch-22, you want to gain engineering experience, but being a music major won't help you get any positions that would increase your engineering experience, you have to be studying engineering.
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Old 02-13-2011, 09:30 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati near
2,628 posts, read 4,282,771 times
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I think the most important thing to stress is that some fields are just very competitive. Without the education, you can't even compete. With the education, be prepared to fight with a hundred other people for that one spot. Simply passing is not good enough. If you are not in the top third of your class in the sciences, for example, be prepared to be dramatically underemployed until you can prove yourself. It may not seem fair, but it is the reality.
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Old 02-14-2011, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Michissippi
3,120 posts, read 8,040,169 times
Reputation: 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnvsmith View Post
To those of you that b***h about college, know that your failure is 100% your fault! Stop blaming the colleges.
In your view, is it possible to have an oversupply of college graduates? If we doubled the number of accountants (or people in Field X) would the number of jobs for accounts (or people in Field X) at currently prevailing wages magically double to accommodate all of the new graduates produced?

That's the issue. If too many people are going to college for too few college-education-requiring jobs that pay appropriately then college indeed might be a ripoff, especially if it's very expensive.

Are you open to the possibility that some degree programs (engineering, physician) are worthwhile whereas others might be a huge waste of time and money (a ripoff) such as law (extremely glutted and expensive), science PhD, and liberal arts degrees?

In your view, is hard work, intelligence, and ambition enough to overcome any market-based barrier (such as a complete lack of need for new graduates in certain fields)? Or do you acknowledge that market forces and supply and demand play a huge role in vocational success?

Quote:
1. The world owes you nothing! (you need to think outside the box and learn to fend for yourself, stop waiting for someone to hand you stuff, jobs, etc)

2. College is just a door opener; it is not a guarantee-for nothing in life is. (When the door opens you still have to go through it and deal what’s on the other side, and most of the time, it isn’t roses!)
...And reasons (1) and (2) are precisely why people need to ask whether or not certain degree programs are a ripoff and provide sufficient return on investment (time and money).

A broader question which some people might be asking is whether it makes economic sense for our society to invest billions and billions of dollars on higher education when we are producing a huge oversupply of college graduates. Might it make more sense for fewer people to be able to gain admission to college and for the production of college graduates to match the real world demand for college graduates? Otherwise our society is just wasting money and human effort that could be put to more productive use.

Quote:
3. Life is very competitive and it is not fair. (it is not fair that shaq is 7’7 and I’m 6’3, and I’m sure the 5’2 guy thinks it’s not fair for him either)
Which is why people need to question just how competitive certain fields of work are and to seek specialize in better fields. (As Dale Carnegie once said (something to this effect), find something you like to do that also has a good job market.)

Quote:
4. In the long run, you will never, ever lose by getting your college degree!
This is absolutely false. It depends on the cost of the college degree (tuition, living expenses, and opportunity cost) and the employment value of a college degree.

Remember, student loans are NOT dischargeable in bankruptcy! You can destroy your entire life and burden yourself with student loans that you can never pay off or escape from.

Consider the heavily glutted legal profession, for example. Anecdotal stories about about unemployed, underemployed, unemployable, and suicidal law school graduates who could not find work in the field as a result of the law schools producing three times the number of new lawyers than our nations' economy can employ. Becoming a lawyer could easily cost you $180,000 today, and that doesn't count undergraduate student loan debt.

Question the dogma. Question whether you have been indoctrinated by our media and politicians to believe the claim that higher education always makes economic sense.

And remember, this is the year 2011 when everyone and his brother and his brothers' friends are going to college. This is not 1950 when far far fewer people went to college and college degrees thus had much higher employment value. (It was also much, much less expensive.)

Quote:
Don’t get the wrong impression, I’m not saying “ha ha you’re dumb and don’t know what your talking about” You are just misguided and not seeing the whole picture. But every time you make a post about how dumb college is you are just painting a picture of yourself as the real fool.
Please enlighten us as to the "whole picture". You really do come off as a brain-dead dogmatist who's bought into all of this touchy-feely propaganda.

Quote:
Opportunities are very few and far for those without college education.
Not necessarily. It depends on what you do. If you pick up a blue collar skilled trade such as welding or HVAC you could do very well for yourself while having relatively little educational investment. If you are savvy and geographically mobile you could travel the country going to hot spots where skilled trades labor is needed (such as the booming oil fields of North Dakota).

In contrast, a great many college graduates have skills and education that do not translate to real-world employment and end up being impoverished.

Question the Dogma. Use your analytical and critical thinking skills.
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Old 02-14-2011, 03:46 PM
 
Location: Michissippi
3,120 posts, read 8,040,169 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knit Knots View Post
Both sides of the argument have their valid points.

I remember in my career class, out professor showed us a nice graph from the Bureau of Labor Statistics from 2009. In both categories (unemployment and weekly earnings), those with advanced degrees made more money per week on average and were less unemployed than those without degrees. In this case, it is obvious that having that college degree will be useful in making more money and landing a job. So essentially, the less education you have, the lower your chances of finding employment.
Knit Knots, those stats need to be taken with a huge grain of salt.

Why? Because they consider the outcomes (and thus value and return on investment people obtained from their degrees) for people who graduated decades ago before the colleges and universities were flooded and before job markets were heavily glutted.

It's illegitimate to look at the value of a college degree (bachelors or advanced) from 1970 and say that higher education has the same economic value today as it did back then. So, it's quite possible that people who earned college degrees and advanced degrees back in the Sixties, Seventies, and Eighties did indeed do very well for themselves.

However, that was then. To properly judge the value of college education and advanced degrees today it's necessary to look at the outcomes people have received (and their projected return on investment) who graduated over the past 10 years.

As tuition costs have skyrocketed and as job markets have become increasingly glutted and competitive and as global labor arbitrage has put downward pressure on wages, the return on investment for higher education has decreased precipitously.
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Old 02-14-2011, 05:43 PM
 
2,279 posts, read 3,960,740 times
Reputation: 1669
Default Bhaalspawn

And who are you?
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Old 02-14-2011, 05:47 PM
 
2,279 posts, read 3,960,740 times
Reputation: 1669
Quote:
Originally Posted by Themanwithnoname View Post
I'm pissed that the COST has grown expedentually, while int he last 11 years since I first went it has been dumbed down almost as dramatically, that it takes 5 months to cover materials that I could learn in 1-2 weeks (Not all classes, just many) and that in order to get this piece of paper I have to spend my money and time to support non-self supporting departments such as 'music appreciation'.
Was it worth it for you? Well, with your run on sentences and spelling infractions, I'll say nope. Expedentually? C'mon, really? Haha.

Ahh, just goes to show you that any moron with a library card and half a brain can log on to a computer and type, type, type away. And you said you have a degree? Oh $***!

Last edited by Z3N1TH 0N3; 02-14-2011 at 06:02 PM..
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Old 02-14-2011, 06:52 PM
 
19,045 posts, read 25,129,286 times
Reputation: 13485
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z3N1TH 0N3 View Post
Was it worth it for you? Well, with your run on sentences and spelling infractions, I'll say nope. Expedentually? C'mon, really? Haha.
I'm a bit curious about this one as well.
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Old 02-15-2011, 09:06 PM
 
Location: Tucson/Nogales
23,106 posts, read 28,835,190 times
Reputation: 32449
Following the recent events in Tunisia/Egypt, you find great number of college graduates, all dressed up and nowhere to go, except to join a protest. Jobs! Jobs! Where are they!

I was just reading about the leader of Syria, who built all these fine schools & universities, and? All dressed up, nowhere to go!

I'm getting to think the entire world is becoming over-educated and the blue-collar workers and college professors are having the last laughs!
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Old 02-16-2011, 02:58 PM
 
5,644 posts, read 13,185,737 times
Reputation: 14170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhaalspawn View Post
Knit Knots, those stats need to be taken with a huge grain of salt.

Why? Because they consider the outcomes (and thus value and return on investment people obtained from their degrees) for people who graduated decades ago before the colleges and universities were flooded and before job markets were heavily glutted.

It's illegitimate to look at the value of a college degree (bachelors or advanced) from 1970 and say that higher education has the same economic value today as it did back then. So, it's quite possible that people who earned college degrees and advanced degrees back in the Sixties, Seventies, and Eighties did indeed do very well for themselves.

However, that was then. To properly judge the value of college education and advanced degrees today it's necessary to look at the outcomes people have received (and their projected return on investment) who graduated over the past 10 years.

As tuition costs have skyrocketed and as job markets have become increasingly glutted and competitive and as global labor arbitrage has put downward pressure on wages, the return on investment for higher education has decreased precipitously.
All anecdotal...

Where is your evidence that the "return on investment for higher education has decreased precipitously"??

In many of your posts you make the same tired arguments over and over and over....

What percentage of Americans do you think possess a BS or higher??

Only a little more than 25%...and that figure has been relatively stable for a number of years now...

Adults With College Degrees in the United States, by County - Students - The Chronicle of Higher Education

The fact remains, that in comparison to other countries with similar socioeconomic demographics, the US population is woefully UNDEREDUCATED.

Even in the current economic downturn, those with degrees are less likely to be unemployed than those without....a fact which has remained true throughout history in the US.

You act like its something new that "tution costs have skyrocketed" and "job markets have contracted"...

Newsflash...

Tuition costs have been "skyrocketing" forever....this is nothing "new"

As for the economic downturn, I am old enough to have lived through a few of these now...this is hardly unprecedented and it too, will likely pass.

And when the economy does recover, as it almost inevitably will....those with the educational attainment will once again surpass those without.
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