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What's funny is you never consider HOW these schools came about!
Yes, people who love learning didn't learn any way they can!
-Oh, and reading does MOST of that (Although yoru right about the discussion and such that can be done anywhere 2 people are)
Now, I don't profess to be any 'Ivey League' type person, but Ole Miss isn't 'your town community collage'
Nor is the University of Southern Alabama the bottom of the barrel ether.
And I'd say you were EXACTLY WRONG.
One of my Favorate Mark Twain Quotes is:
"Never let your schooling interfere with your education"
I'm currently attending a pretty decent 'state school' and in the top three in my Area of study.
After this semester is over I will only have 2 'core classes' till my degree, and I can definitively state that I could have, and have learned more from reading on my own.
-Or my internship.
Ether VASTLY outweighs the 'schooling' (And As I said, this school is VERY well thought of in the career field)
People do this thing with the collective of knowledge.
They put them in books.
It takes discipline, and many people don't have it. (Hell, I need more of it. I'm usually on here taking a break from the dry reading, giving myself tonight off)
And there are things (Like GIS for me) that I doubt I would have got without a teacher.
But IMHO your view is flawed and incorrect.
Many of 'the most brilliant minds' (Excluding a few fields) AREN'T AT the schools. They are out applying their knowledge/skills and making MONEY.
Secondly... these guys tend to WRITE...
So read.
As to not going to the library... a lot of people don't go to class ether!
Alot of people who paid a lot of money to study books they could have read on their own, or somewhere less price-inflated make your excuses.
BTDT, had the Tshirt, but it wore out.
Why do you think CLEPing exists?
You are completely missing the point I tried to make. Reading on your own is not a bad thing. I am an avid reader, when I have time. But a book doesn't question your thought process. That said, you might go years thinking you're the smartest guy in the room, but nobody has questioned your intelligence. You haven't been forced to defend your beliefs or opinions, because the book you read to formulate your thoughts didn't question their validity; rather, they established and reinforced them.
The fact is you don't know what you don't know. Sure, you can read books; nothing wrong with that. But books don't teach you how to think on your feet. They don't challenge your views. Discussion and debate teaches you how to think on your feet, and that's what you get when you're in a classroom full of other top-notch intellectuals. That's not what you get from a book. And I'd hardly count the C-D forum being an excellent forum for discussion and debate. There are too many trolls roaming around on the Internet.
You are completely missing the point I tried to make. Reading on your own is not a bad thing. I am an avid reader, when I have time. But a book doesn't question your thought process. That said, you might go years thinking you're the smartest guy in the room, but nobody has questioned your intelligence. You haven't been forced to defend your beliefs or opinions, because the book you read to formulate your thoughts didn't question their validity; rather, they established and reinforced them.
The fact is you don't know what you don't know. Sure, you can read books; nothing wrong with that. But books don't teach you how to think on your feet. They don't challenge your views. Discussion and debate teaches you how to think on your feet, and that's what you get when you're in a classroom full of other top-notch intellectuals. That's not what you get from a book. And I'd hardly count the C-D forum being an excellent forum for discussion and debate. There are too many trolls roaming around on the Internet.
Gatcha now.
We agree more than I thought.
Cept one thing.
I've attended several schools, from Ole Miss, and USA mentioned, to community collages and 'mainstream state schools' on general Education, Medicine, Philosophy, Sociology, Criminal Justice, hard sciences, history etc...
and have yet to find what you outline. (In bold) From classes with approx 20 students to stadium seating.
Teachers have a series of material to teach, and DO NOT like people attempting to discuss material. They (with RARE exceptions) just want you to sit back and take the tests.
-My Sociology class is a PERFECT example. The (Flaming liberal) teacher was railing against 'class inequality' and quoting statistics I knew to be wrong.
I looked up the IRS information online and attempted (In one of my RARE tactful ways) to bring it up by ASKING about it. (Rather than my typical "your wrong and here's why")
He told me to discuss it with him after class or during his office hours and then REFUSED to do so.
-This later carried over into (When I missed school for a core class excused event) into him violating school policy about allowing me to make up a test.
-I had to carry it to the dean and won.
THAT is the 'typical' results I've seen across the spectrum (Not necessarely the 'kick back' but the disinterest in actual discussion.) of over 10 years and Five Colleges.
(Any chance I had while On active duty I'd take a couple classes)
I blame it on our Prussian, rather than our Athenian style of education.
I've attended several schools, from Ole Miss, and USA mentioned, to community collages and 'mainstream state schools' on general Education, Medicine, Philosophy, Sociology, Criminal Justice, hard sciences, history etc...
and have yet to find what you outline. (In bold) From classes with approx 20 students to stadium seating.
Teachers have a series of material to teach, and DO NOT like people attempting to discuss material. They (with RARE exceptions) just want you to sit back and take the tests.
-My Sociology class is a PERFECT example. The (Flaming liberal) teacher was railing against 'class inequality' and quoting statistics I knew to be wrong.
I looked up the IRS information online and attempted (In one of my RARE tactful ways) to bring it up by ASKING about it. (Rather than my typical "your wrong and here's why")
He told me to discuss it with him after class or during his office hours and then REFUSED to do so.
-This later carried over into (When I missed school for a core class excused event) into him violating school policy about allowing me to make up a test.
-I had to carry it to the dean and won.
THAT is the 'typical' results I've seen across the spectrum (Not necessarely the 'kick back' but the disinterest in actual discussion.) of over 10 years and Five Colleges.
(Any chance I had while On active duty I'd take a couple classes)
I blame it on our Prussian, rather than our Athenian style of education.
It sounds like you had a few bad experiences. I've never been in a classroom where the professor refused to discuss topics of our interest. In fact, I had one professor who taught us like law students. He'd call us out and have us defend our beliefs. It really put you on the spot, but it taught you to always be prepared and to think on your feet.
I'm sorry you had to deal with crazy lib professors like that. I've always had professors that fit across the spectrum of beliefs. Depending on the program you're in, you could have mainly lib professors (art history, art and design, sociology comes to mind) or you could have mainly conservative professors (business, economics, accounting comes to mind). I had a pretty good mix of professors, IMO. It kept me balanced.
It sounds like you had a few bad experiences. I've never been in a classroom where the professor refused to discuss topics of our interest. In fact, I had one professor who taught us like law students. He'd call us out and have us defend our beliefs. It really put you on the spot, but it taught you to always be prepared and to think on your feet.
I'm sorry you had to deal with crazy lib professors like that. I've always had professors that fit across the spectrum of beliefs. Depending on the program you're in, you could have mainly lib professors (art history, art and design, sociology comes to mind) or you could have mainly conservative professors (business, economics, accounting comes to mind). I had a pretty good mix of professors, IMO. It kept me balanced.
Or it might you were lucky!
I've had a few that were willing to let it be 'open' slightly, but even they were restricted by curriculum so I never saw the idealized view you posted about earlier. (Honestly if I had I'd have a VASTLY different view of 'higher learning')
But I have a hard time believing that I 'had some unusual bad experiences' (I know, not your words)
Due to the breath of classes (I went from wanting to be a Military officer, to taking a few classes (Such as finance) that I was interested in, to Pre-nursing, (I wanted to work int he ER before my injuries precluded it) to my current course of study.
The varying statuses of the schools, to the different states, to the 10+ year span of attendance.
What's funny is you never consider HOW these schools came about!
Yes, people who love learning didn't learn any way they can!
-Oh, and reading does MOST of that (Although yoru right about the discussion and such that can be done anywhere 2 people are)
Now, I don't profess to be any 'Ivey League' type person, but Ole Miss isn't 'your town community collage'
Nor is the University of Southern Alabama the bottom of the barrel ether.
And I'd say you were EXACTLY WRONG.
One of my Favorate Mark Twain Quotes is:
"Never let your schooling interfere with your education"
I'm currently attending a pretty decent 'state school' and in the top three in my Area of study.
After this semester is over I will only have 2 'core classes' till my degree, and I can definitively state that I could have, and have learned more from reading on my own.
-Or my internship.
Ether VASTLY outweighs the 'schooling' (And As I said, this school is VERY well thought of in the career field)
People do this thing with the collective of knowledge.
They put them in books.
It takes discipline, and many people don't have it. (Hell, I need more of it. I'm usually on here taking a break from the dry reading, giving myself tonight off)
And there are things (Like GIS for me) that I doubt I would have got without a teacher.
But IMHO your view is flawed and incorrect.
Many of 'the most brilliant minds' (Excluding a few fields) AREN'T AT the schools. They are out applying their knowledge/skills and making MONEY.
Secondly... these guys tend to WRITE...
So read.
As to not going to the library... a lot of people don't go to class ether!
Alot of people who paid a lot of money to study books they could have read on their own, or somewhere less price-inflated make your excuses.
BTDT, had the Tshirt, but it wore out.
Why do you think CLEPing exists?
I agree with the bolded. I took a GIS class last semester. It's not very hard after you've been taught by someone else. But it's hard to learn on your own (I tried to learn on my own before I took a GIS class).
It will be interesting to see what kind of an effect that has, if any. There has been talk about a fabled Baby Boomer retirement for about two decades. In the science field people talked about how old professors would retire, making way for new scientists to get assistant professor positions. If they've retired, it doesn't seem to have made much of a difference.
For underemployed and unemployed college grads, if the mass retirements ever do come, they have to hope that they won't suffer job market discrimination for having graduated into gluts and that employers won't prefer fresh new graduates who aren't "damaged goods".
The oldest of the Baby Boomers just started turning 65 this Jan. 1, not two months ago. I think we will start seeing retirements accelerate in the next few years, but probably at least 5 years out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC
How many years after graduation, and not working in your field, does the degree become worthless? I assume, for potential employers, it has an expiration date. Is that true? At what point in time do you become, for example, the person with sales clerk experience rather than college graduate with a BA in Communications?
Yes, and it also depends on how you want you want to spend your career. I don't think we're in disagreement on anything. I'm just pointing out that even though certain degrees might not be worth as much as others, it doesn't make them worthless. They just can't necessarily be used for what one person might feel is worthwhile and practical. To each his own.
well, your semi-outside-the-box-thinking has resulted in success with your LA degree. we as a nation need to understand many who choose LA and other majors can't map out a personal post-college plan if their lives depended on it. they have a weird tunnel vision meaning they don't even know what's at the end of the tunnel. at least many with regular tunnel vision have a clue or a rough goal... but these WTV (weird tunnel vision) kids can't think for themselves. they are one-dimensional and blah. i'm tempted to say "formulaic" but i don't respect them enough to even grant them that! i bet they tend to be 'followers' instead of 'leaders' in general and if so, it should come as no surprise that they're not in great demand .... i say you should be proud/thankful that you instinctively knew to set yourself apart from the sheeple because sheeple aren't greatly needed by corporate america, even with their degrees (well, they're not needed for the good jobs, even though the sheeple want the good jobs). some degrees such as a LA degree do require some extra beef --and that's where individualized outside-the-box-creativity is required. you are a good example of this.
and much to the chagrin of the blah/WTV kids in this country, nobody can give a recipe to them on how to bake an individuality cake. lol. ... individuality can never be made into a recipe by someone else, and these blah kids fail to realize that. they give new meaning to the word dependent... maybe starbucks is a perfect fit for them? individuality isn't required at starbucks. lol. ah, it's nice to get this stuff off my chest.
College has turned into an oversold scam in this country.
-Exempt from that is medicine, engineering, the sciences. Some law. I wouldn't say all of it, because some lawyers get a great return on their investment. But the bulk of college is turning into an advanced babysitting course, at a high $$$$ price tag.
1st. You're not just surrounded by intellectuals. The number of remedial courses in college now does not equal an intellectual sitting next to you at every desk. It's the 13th and 14th grade. Or the 11th and 1/2 grade. Maybe grad school, or phd programs have intellectuals. No arguements there.
The labor markets and global labor arbitrage is swamping any sort of advantage you may think you're getting. There are large waves in the world that are going to toss this generation to the rocks. The ivy leagues make up a pretty small percentage of total college grads. What are the rest going to do? How many got that state school english degree or art history?
The baby boomers were insulated from a lot of the dislocations we see now. Even when the boomers retire, I don't think these degrees will provide the legs or earning power boomers got. They can't. One world was enclosed....70 million boomers earned their way through life in a stairstep fashion.
Everything after the 80's and 90's is an open world. 6 billion people with a level playing field. And that $50,000 psychology degree is the sole piece of paper you need now for success in America for the next 20 or 30 years? Somehow I doubt it. These "studies" that highlight highschool vs college grad earnings, they're so superficial. What about changes in the tax code? Taxes are probably going to be much higher in the next 30 years, than the previous. What about the role of credit creation? Boomers rode credit creation the way a surfer rides a wave. But that wave isn't going to be as big for the next generation.
Gen y has been sold a lot of over hyped surfboards. When really, it was the weather conditions that let the boomers surf well. Not what color their surfboard was.
Exactly. They fail to acknowledge how the alternative is working dead end jobs.
Or that you can easily go to a community college cheap then transfer to a top 100 public and pay very little.
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