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Location: Ohio, but moving to El Paso, TX August/September
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mm_mary73
At community colleges you have the faculty there that are not capable of top tier research and hence, not capable of getting hired at 4 year universities. You seem to not understand what it takes to get hired at a 4 year or any understanding of the huge pay gap between 4 year and community colleges for tenured jobs. Well bless your heart - why are you getting so upset? I am not, in spite of your tone, and just for the record, tenure is not offered to faculty at community colleges - we are on year-to-year contracts and most definitely don't make as much as tenured, or even non-tenured faculty. The actual teaching of students isn't rewarded as well in either setting as are the professors/instructors who are able to bring in the research dollars. That's the sad economics about it. ((sigh)) University faculty chose to be on the tenure or non-tenure track - but wait, you do know that don't you. Oh, and the difference between an instructor and a professor is who has the PhD and the research dollars - guess which is which, because yes, there is a difference. All the teaching assistants I knew at Duke and Western Carolina had Master's or postMaster's degrees. The associate professors were doctoral candidates / non-tenured PhDs. Most were extensively published in referreed journals as well, some as 1st author. You be sweet, now. Bye-bye!
I'm not getting upset. I'm explaining for people out there who don't know, that there is a difference between community college profs and 4 year school professors. No professor in their right mind would choose to be on a non-tenure track unless they can't do research (either not enough time or not enough ability). Of course TA's have masters or are Ph.D. candidates. That's how they get their funding for grad school. See, students who are funded do that for things called tuition waivers and stipends.
My husband doesn't bring in research dollars. He is fully funded by his university as are most people in his field. So yes, faculty can get paid well. In my husband's field, the median rate for associates at 4 year schools is 120k a year. There's nothing sad about those economics unless you think 120 is something to sniff.
Please give me a link to a department at a 4 year school that had non-tenure tracks and doctorals as associates because at the school my husband got his Ph.D. at, that did not exist, nor did it at his first school out of grad school, nor at the school he just moved to. And at the schools that all of his co-authors are at, not one employs associates who are non-tenured or non-Ph.D. They do however, utilitze visitng associates, but visiting associates must have Ph.D.s. Do you mean visiting associates? That would make sense, but that is not the same as an associate professor (the ranks go assistant, associate, full, chaired). There is a difference between a visiting and a regular faculty member. But I'm sure you know that.
(ETA..The only field I can think of where Ph.Ds would not be a requirement for an associate would be some old profs who were grandfathered in for accounting before Ph.D's became required for accreditation from the AACSB and some fine arts departments where PhDs aren't considered terminal degrees, or people who were hired at low quality 4 year schools as ABD and never finished up)
As I said before, community colleges do have their place. And I'll add, so do community college profs. However, they are not the same as those at 4 year schools and I'm sorry if it hurts your esteem to hear that.
I think many of the more effective teachers are at CCs. In my experience, professors at four year universities are hired primarily for research purposes and are not as effective at teaching.
I took some basic geology courses at my community college a few years ago. The man who taught the classes had worked as a consultant in the oil industry and he also had a PhD. When I took his class, he was one year away from retirement. My impression is that he was teaching these classes because he was obviously not on some career path to be a professor (because he happily shared his retirement plans with us :-) ). My guess would be that after decades of working in the industry as a geologist, he was looking at teaching as a semi-retirement activity or to make some extra money on the side... There could of been any number of reasons. In any case, he had a wealth of professional experience and I enjoyed his classes. When I finished his second course on Historical Geology, I took a Mineral Sciences course at the University and felt prepared for that class. The University had no problem with accepting the 2 CC classes as prerequisites. The University class cost twice the amount as one of the CC classes.
I share this story to illustrate: 1) why you might find PhDs at a CC, 2) that 4-years schools do accept courses from 2-year schools, and 3) the financial benefit of having taken the first two courses at the CC.
The other benefit was that the CC courses were offered in the evening and I could attend them after work hours. Unfortunately, as much as I wanted to continue studying geology, I got to the point where the upper-level classes I wanted to take were held only during the middle of the day. The classes were in the mornings and the labs were in the afternoon. And I couldn't get an employer to agree to taking almost two days off a week to attend these classes. I checked some other schools in the area and I couldn't find any that would offer these classes and labs on the weekend. It made me very irate, because there is this myth that is perpetuated that adult learners can go back to school and change their careers. However, that is only true if they pick very specific careers like Education, Business, etc. or trades--that offer classes from 6pm and onwards and on weekends. If you want to change to other careers, most schools are still tailored toward people right out of high school, and as an adult with a job and a mortgate, you're SOL.
I'm with you on that. For those that speak down on CC, it's usually a reflection of some outdated thinking, I believe.
I was reading this thread with my mouth hanging open wondering where people had gotten such antiquated views. Thank you for stating this. I doubt anyone who is so disparaging of community colleges has any recent, real knowledge or experience of them.
Actually, they look at your GPA, how well you did on the LSAT or MCAT, what your major was and how you did in that major, and what else you did to make yourself truly outstanding - study abroad, multi-lingual, ace inorganic chemistry, etc.
The 1st 2 years in a senior institution are more often than not general education courses, most of which can be taken at a community college. Students who return home after an unsuccessful freshman year at university often perform better at the cc because of the "personal" touch they get - class size is often not more than 20 students, instructors take an interest in them and know their name, and they go on to finish their baccalaureate degree. Classes are taught by instructors with minimum of Master's in the subject area and, frequently, are doctorally prepared. Or that's how it is at MY community college, where I teach and advise students......
I want to kiss you right now. And with that, I will sit on my hands so I stop replying compulsively in this thread.
Another problem is that even though one particular class offered by both the 2-year and the traditional 4-year- college is "supposed" to be the same class, the one at the 2-year school often isn't as advanced as the one at a university. Another child of mine just graduated with an undergrad degree a couple of months ago and said that many kids who transferred from community colleges just weren't as academically prepared as they were told they would be. I experienced the same thing over 20 years ago, but it was even worse.
Community colleges have improved their level of education, I believe. However, the general level of students at a four-year college or university tends to be more advanced than at a junior college. Of course, that's not always true at all. But, based on my experiences, it's more often correct than not, and that opinion is shared by almost everyone with whom I've spoken about the comparison.
OK I lied, one more reply. Here's the thing: my experience in teaching both at a 4 year and CC is the exact opposite. Sucks to rely on anecdotal evidence, doesn't it?
To each their own??? Isn't this America, the land of the free choice? If you wish to go to a crummy community college with uncomfortable chairs, and bottom of the barrel professors, go right ahead. Most of the professors in community colleges couldn't make it anywhere else, and that's why they are there.
Um, no. Of course, if you have some proof of this absurd contention I'd love to see it.
No one is comparing 2-year schools to 4-year ones. They are comparing the FIRST 2 years of one school with the FIRST 2 years of another. MOST FRESHMAN AND SOPHMORE CLASSES ARE 'BASIC.' Core requirements can be learned anywhere. Why not take them where you can pay less for them? Plus, I think it seems like a huge waste to have a PhD teaching a bunch of freshman a course on Biology 101.
If someone transfers from 2 years at a community college to a 4-year school, they're coming in at their junior year and beginning their upper-level undergrad classes. They now have 2 years to get to know the professors, and they can get their recommendations for grad school and pursue their research projects. I've taken core courses at very good 4-year-schools and I've taken some at community colleges. I haven't seen a difference--other than the fact that the classes were smaller for the community colleges (which was big plus).
Not to mention the fact that many lower classes at 4 year unis are taught by grad students.
I do. No junior college in my area offers engineering calculus. Unfortunately, you are unfamiliar with the situation because, at least two major universities that I know, students do work directly with professors in the college of engineering during freshman, but especially sophomore year. In several majors, even "core" classes are not offered in junior colleges. It's very unfortunately true that universities also offer some core courses that should have been obtained in high school.
However, the fact remains that a well-educated 18-year-old will not find much offered at a junior college, which is really just a bridge for those not ready for university.
Yeah, your educated 18 year old should take one of my classes. I guarantee you they would find a great deal to learn. Unless, that is, they have read and intimately understood Aristotle, Kant, Nietzsche, etc.?
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The actual teaching of students isn't rewarded as well in either setting as are the professors/instructors who are able to bring in the research dollars. That's the sad economics about it. ((sigh)) University faculty chose to be on the tenure or non-tenure track - but wait, you do know that don't you. Oh, and the difference between an instructor and a professor is who has the PhD and the research dollars - guess which is which, because yes, there is a difference. All the teaching assistants I knew at Duke and Western Carolina had Master's or postMaster's degrees. The associate professors were doctoral candidates / non-tenured PhDs. Most were extensively published in referreed journals as well, some as 1st author. You be sweet, now. Bye-bye! 
And with that, I will sit on my hands so I stop replying compulsively in this thread.
