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Old 03-03-2012, 01:44 AM
 
Location: Summerville, SC
3,383 posts, read 2,949,203 times
Reputation: 1364
No one should ever be forced to study stuff they hate.


That being said people should follow what they want, but there has to be a degree of following something that is economically feasible. The pursuit of knowledge is great, but at the same time, WTF is up with the cost of educations?
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Old 03-03-2012, 06:21 AM
 
675 posts, read 594,292 times
Reputation: 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
Lately I have been hearing this phrase on this board - "return for investment" when applied to a university education. It sickens me. It is indicative of a total misunderstanding of a beauty and power of a liberal arts education.

By this logic, perhaps we should just send our children to trade schools,or community colleges, ban the learning of literature, philosophy, theology and the arts!

Even the social sciences have come under attack here! When does it end? When we turn all of our kids into electrical engineers or majors in medical fields?

My cousin just returned from visiting several North Eastern liberal arts universities (highly competitive) and a few hard science oriented institutions. She was disturbed to hear this odious phrase bandied about at two schools.
It turned her off. It turned her daughter off. She will not be applying their.

They had never heard this foolish phrase before. Sadly, I had. It reflects an intrenched anti-intellectuality, and not only a disdain for learning, but a misunderstanding of it!

It is particularly disturbing when it is applied to "older" students with respect to "how long they will live in order to recoup their expenses"

Knowledge is priceless!

And with that, I have decided that I will formally seek to learn more and to accrue yet another degree. There will be no spread sheets involved and the ratio of expense vs. life span will not play a part in this.

Those of you forcing your children to study subjects because they are "hot" right now? I feel sorry for you. More so for your child.

There is nothing more expensive than the futile attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole.

My son will begin studies by following his bliss - a BFA in Art. I am excited to see where this passion leads him.How exciting to have a child with a passion other than money, especially in this day and age!
Posts like this show exactly why America is falling tremendously behind in math and science.


You think Indian or Asian parents are telling this to their children? But hey, have your kids follow their passions, just don't complain that they are living in your basement or that the USA cant produce anything anymore.
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Old 03-03-2012, 06:49 AM
 
Location: Providence, RI
3,818 posts, read 4,765,424 times
Reputation: 2758
I think you have an excellent point Sheena and the true non monetary value of an education has always been the standard for those who could afford the great luxury of a liberal arts education. Learning for learning's sake represented the cultural divide between the college educated upper classes and the mass of workers. Though of course, there has always been the self made man or woman- such as Abraham Lincoln- a self taught lawyer.

Sadly, most young people today are forced by economics to think in terms of whether or not their tuition money- a major expense- will bring them employment. Additionally, there are no huge numbers of untrained jobs available- like factory work or agriculture- as there were in past times.
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Old 03-03-2012, 06:57 AM
 
40,871 posts, read 42,078,943 times
Reputation: 12248
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
Lately I have been hearing this phrase on this board - "return for investment" when applied to a university education. It sickens me. It is indicative of a total misunderstanding of a beauty and power of a liberal arts education.

By this logic, perhaps we should just send our children to trade schools,or community colleges, ban the learning of literature, philosophy, theology and the arts!

Even the social sciences have come under attack here! When does it end? When we turn all of our kids into electrical engineers or majors in medical fields?

My cousin just returned from visiting several North Eastern liberal arts universities (highly competitive) and a few hard science oriented institutions. She was disturbed to hear this odious phrase bandied about at two schools.
It turned her off. It turned her daughter off. She will not be applying their.

They had never heard this foolish phrase before. Sadly, I had. It reflects an intrenched anti-intellectuality, and not only a disdain for learning, but a misunderstanding of it!

It is particularly disturbing when it is applied to "older" students with respect to "how long they will live in order to recoup their expenses"

Knowledge is priceless!

And with that, I have decided that I will formally seek to learn more and to accrue yet another degree. There will be no spread sheets involved and the ratio of expense vs. life span will not play a part in this.

Those of you forcing your children to study subjects because they are "hot" right now? I feel sorry for you. More so for your child.

There is nothing more expensive than the futile attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole.

My son will begin studies by following his bliss - a BFA in Art. I am excited to see where this passion leads him.How exciting to have a child with a passion other than money, especially in this day and age!
I am not sure I ever read any more of a arrogant speech in telling others that they are wrong for thinking the way they do.Perhaps next time he crosses one of thsoe beautiful bridges or admires a great building the OP will appreciate those engineers and their knowledge.Some people are just into much more practical thinking than just thinking and mankind is better off for it. Just loking at the emloyemnt forum shows that many find that they can't get a job with their degree or that they are stuck behind come desk goign somethnig that has nothig to do with their degree. Thosee are the people I feel sorry for really;readig their misery while paying that student debt.
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:17 AM
Status: "Corn well over knee high!" (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
67,336 posts, read 54,947,129 times
Reputation: 18717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
Posts like this show exactly why America is falling tremendously behind in math and science.


You think Indian or Asian parents are telling this to their children? But hey, have your kids follow their passions, just don't complain that they are living in your basement or that the USA cant produce anything anymore.
Oh, for pity's sake! First of all, I don't agree that America is falling "tremendously" behind in math and science, or even behind at all. Secondly, if it is happening, and that's a big "if", it's probably b/c kids are being pushed into these areas when they actually have no interest or talent in same.

I tend to lean towards the college is for learning side myself, with a healthy part of, "one has to earn a living" as well. Many people in the liberal arts go on to find jobs somewhat in their fields anyway that do require a college education. They've learned to think critically and their study in say, art history, has shown them what the job opportunities are in that field, something most posters on CD don't know.
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:20 AM
 
4,779 posts, read 5,178,987 times
Reputation: 2949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Oh, for pity's sake! First of all, I don't agree that America is falling "tremendously" behind in math and science, or even behind at all. Secondly, if it is happening, and that's a big "if", it's probably b/c kids are being pushed into these areas when they actually have no interest or talent in same.

I tend to lean towards the college is for learning side myself, with a healthy part of, "one has to earn a living" as well. Many people in the liberal arts go on to find jobs somewhat in their fields anyway that do require a college education. They've learned to think critically and their study in say, art history, has shown them what the job opportunities are in that field, something most posters on CD don't know.
Good post. Good to see some balance on this thread.

Any student who has good people/networking skills, is flexible, etc. can make a living. Like I mentioned before, sometimes all an employer wants to see is that a student stuck through something and saw it to the end. Its the commitment that often matters.

The rest of it comes down to the attitude and understanding what employers are looking for in an interview, etc. Of course, it help majorly to get another accompanying skill like teaching, business/marketing, etc.

But yes, majoring in the liberal arts does require more of a real plan as to what you are going to do with that, than say engineering or health care. With those you KNOW what you are going to do after college and how/where you are going to apply for jobs.
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Atlanta & NYC
6,629 posts, read 4,959,896 times
Reputation: 6298
The 1950's mentality of going to college = profitable, definitely career needs to go.
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:09 AM
 
Location: On The Road Full Time RVing
1,891 posts, read 1,004,018 times
Reputation: 1550
.
Many people have spent thousands upon thousands of wasted dollars on
getting many degrees, and can't even find a job to justify their education.

Most of them needed to enroll in classes to be educated in the great
needed knowledge in life of common sence, which they fail to do ! ! !

Many American dreams turn out to be nightmares and the highly educated fail to account in life and the world that things changing and they do not know how to adjust, which is another thing the do not teach people in school, or college.
.
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:10 AM
 
Location: outer space
484 posts, read 432,784 times
Reputation: 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
I am in no way deriding people who love Engineering and Science. Or Math or Medicine.
I am currently assisting my niece and sister to find such a school. My niece has a paassion and a talent for such things. She should study this!

On this forum, and IRL, I have heard of students who do not have these interests, derided and practically called fools! There is also a huge double standard when it comes to universities and their expectation of Engineering students vs. Liberal Arts Students. At many universities, the course load of liberal arts classes is greatly reduced and watered down! So that they can study what they are really good at. Where their heart lies. Certainly, Engineering students might need to take a Survey of Lit class, or an art history course but no one is going to force them to actually write a readable story, or produce a work of art. That would be silly now, wouldn't it?

However, liberal arts and social science students are not just asked to learn ABOUT SCIENCE and MATH, they are expected to perform mathematical problems! Not ones that will be needed for their field, but ones that they will be frustrated by. Things that will bore them to tears! Sure, all college educated students should want to know why their colleagues at university who are studying engineering are studying higher math forms. And not wanting to know is anti-intellectual. Not wanting to do, is not. But I have digressed.

Can anyone concede the truth? The purpose of a university education is not the finding of gainful employment. I have seen SO MANY PEOPLE pushed into fields that do not excite or even interest them ...just so they can get a job. And spending money ten years later to re-educate them selves in a field that they actually love. Their true vocation.

If that is all that truly interests you, attaining a job, perhaps you should check out a vocational program! If you do not want to read the sonnets of Shakespeare, the works of Conrad, Hardy or Elliot, the thoughts of Freud, Jung, or Maslow concerning human behavior, motivation, emotion and development. If you are just fine not knowing why I deplore Descartes, but love Schopenhauer or Kierkegaard, - or why someone else might feel the opposite, if you do not know the place John Maynard Keynes plays in Capitalism or want to be able to argue a point with alacrity against a historical revisionist,or a person who denies that the Holocaust ever took place, and furthermore you do not see the danger in such a line of thought. IF none of this maters or interests you, there is a good chance that a university education may not be right for you.

Your university will teach you way more than you care to know, and it will all be wasted on you.
Perhaps THAT is the bad investment!
To understand math, you must work the problems.

Can you learn about english composition by talking about the subject matter and never sitting down and writing?
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:10 AM
 
9,808 posts, read 12,933,485 times
Reputation: 9528
How many of us "of a certain age" remember those public service announcements with some deep Jame Earl Jones-like voice intoning, "To get a good job, get a good education." ?
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