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Thank you! I don't know where this idea that many/most people think a college degree "guarantees them a job" began but I suspect that it began among some political pundits with axes to grind and has been picked up by some posters on C-D and other sites who have an anti-intellectual bias.
Elementary, middle, and high schools do a good job of telling kids by either talking to them or showing them posters around the classrooms and the hallways to go to college. College=Success, or there might be a poster of kids going from elementary school, to middle school, to high school, to college, and then graduating like a road map.
There's even a book teachers have read during college week that talks about going to college and being successful.
People should really go inside a school and look around. They'll be surprised what they'll see as far as promoting college propaganda.
Most recent college graduates aren't able to find a job at all, so they are earning $0 per hour.
When they are able to find a job, it is usually in the $10 - $15 range.
The reason why your son got a $20 per hour gig is because he major in math and economics. Math is the M in STEM.
Did you calculate paying off the the $120,000 student debt along with accrued interest?
By definition "Most" means more than 50%, and since more than 50% of college graduates DO find work, and at salaries considerably above the minimum wage scenario you envisioned for your fictional "non college grad", your argument is weak and essentially baseless....
The fictional debt you have envisioned is also well above the norm of around 30,000 which is close to a car loan....
If anything, it has become MORE important to be educated at least to the BA/BS level if one wants to compete in the current economy...
If you think the job market is poor for recent college grads, what do you think the prospects are for those without a degree?
Yeah, so your post here is full of BS. Let us count the reasons why:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago87
I agree, it seems like a lot of recent college graduates are tens of thousands of dollars in debt with no job. Had they gone to work at even a minimum wage job, they would be ahead of the game.
Scenario One:
18 year old goes to college to study history and find herself.
Has to borrow $30,000 a year to cover tuition, room & board, books, food, partying, cost of living, etc.
Graduates in four years.
Result: 22 years old, $120,000 in debt, no job prospects, broke, no work experience
Students like the girl in Scenario #1 are super rare. As it has been mentioned countless times before, the average student loan burden is around $25K. The folks racking up $100K+ in student loan debt are in the extreme minority, the farthest end of the bell curve.
Also, many students take on PT jobs while studying, have work study jobs, or do internships. Either way, they aren't leaving college w/o experience and penniless. It's a truly rare student that leaves college with a blank resume.
Lastly, many students are still graduating college with job offers in hand. Many more will find jobs in the months and years (1-2) ahead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago87
Scenario Two:
18 year old gets a minimum wage job at $7.25 per hour and works 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year.
Gets a 3% cost of living raise after one year so is now earning $7.48 per hour.
Get a promotion after two years and is now earning $10 per hour.
Gets another 3% CoL raise after three years and is now earning $10.30 per hour.
After four years on the job gets another promotion and earns $12.50 per hour.
Result: 22 years old, no debt, has EARNED $72,862 dollars, has a JOB, four years work experience.
Which scenario is better?
Scenario #2 is ESPECIALLY a load of crap.
First off, there isn't a minimum wage job around that gives its workers 40 hours a week. The majority of people working minimum wage are working less than 30 hours a week, with quite a few only working 15-25 hours a week. Also, no one working minimum wage is working 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year. At $7.25/hr, that's only $870/mo max, and more likely $435-$725/mo. Oh, by the way, that's all before taxes. Most importantly, that's all before paying for your health insurance. You know, the health insurance you DON'T get working PT for minimum wage.
Few places paying minimum wage are handing out 3% COL wages. Nope, most places have an arbitrary amount like $0.10 after a year. There are TONS of people who work minimum wage jobs for YEARS (5+) before even getting within sniffing distance of a promotion. Many never get promoted. Oh, and BTW, many of these outfits require that supervisors have a college degree, or at least very much prefers it. While the HS grad is working away, hoping to get that promotion, his co-worker who was doing this job PT while going to college has suddenly become the go-to guy to get that promotion b/c now he has experience AND a degree. At some point, it becomes ridiculously difficult to climb the corporate ladder w/o a degree.
Oh, and another BTW, where is the guy in Scenario #2 living? How much of his meager check is going towards rent, utilities, food, and car insurance/gas/maintenance? What? You say this guy lives at home and doesn't have to pay for that stuff? That could be the case (though it's a rare parent that allows their working, adult child to freeload off of them like this), but couldn't the college girl in Scenario #1 also be living at home, there by spending even less on her degree? At least college girl has the option to live on campus and get a meal plan (which, at many schools, would still fit in under a tuition of $30K/year).
Lastly, while the guy in Scenario #2 may have work experience, it's highly limited experience of the sort not to extend towards other work fields. Four years of experience working cash registers and stocking shelves is superb if you're looking to apply to another job that involves working a cash register and stocking shelves, but beyond that, it's fairly useless outside of showing that you weren't sitting on your tush watching TV for the past 4 years. Compare that to college girl whose internships and work-study jobs have likely netted her experience in data entry, admin work, marketing, social media management, and lots of other types of work that's easily transferable and, frankly, looks better on a resume.
So yeah, I'm gonna have to go with Scenario #1 b/c, by the time that girl hits 30, she's could be earning some big bucks and still have room to grow, whereas the kid in #2 may top out at $12/hour and still be working for that much when he's 30.
ETA: Oh, and I'm speaking as someone who worked in retail for years before deciding to go back to college b/c my job was a dead end and I didn't want to spend the rest of my life potentially working a dead end job like some folks out there.
Of course it's not guaranteed and nor should it be. Things still required are common sense, work ethic, a good attitude, etc...
What amazes me with people like this reminds me of the military guys who think what they learned in the military has no relation to the civilian work world. Like the specific sets of skills may not depending on what they did in the military, it's the non specific skills that help them get ahead. College is no different, I was told that college teaches you how to learn.
I went to a CC which cost less, commuted to school while living at home, worked PT in retail and came out with less debt than most.
It never has. It's up to the graduate to find jobs, apply, sell himself in an interview, and get the job. No one ever promised jobs at the end of a college education. Only improved chances (over HS graduates) of getting a job, and a well-rounded education.
Well respectfully, duh....nothing guarantees a job. A college degree sure does help in some fields, however. It's all an odds game. Do what you need to do to become as competitive as possible in one's field of interest. In some fields, this requires a degree just for entry.
I agree, it seems like a lot of recent college graduates are tens of thousands of dollars in debt with no job. Had they gone to work at even a minimum wage job, they would be ahead of the game.
Scenario One:
18 year old goes to college to study history and find herself.
Has to borrow $30,000 a year to cover tuition, room & board, books, food, partying, cost of living, etc.
Graduates in four years.
Result: 22 years old, $120,000 in debt, no job prospects, broke, no work experience
Scenario Two:
18 year old gets a minimum wage job at $7.25 per hour and works 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year.
Gets a 3% cost of living raise after one year so is now earning $7.48 per hour.
Get a promotion after two years and is now earning $10 per hour.
Gets another 3% CoL raise after three years and is now earning $10.30 per hour.
After four years on the job gets another promotion and earns $12.50 per hour.
Result: 22 years old, no debt, has EARNED $72,862 dollars, has a JOB, four years work experience.
Which scenario is better?
A...but taking that much in loans is just stupid and foolish. The average student loan debt is $27,000 nationally so your example is extreme. Also consider that those loans also went toward living costs, food, rent, utilities, etc. So, in your example 2, $72,862-taxes, so say a net of $50,000 after taxes, FICA, etc. Take $24,000 out of that just for rent, figuring $500/month for 4 years, now that person is at $26,000 over 4 years or really $6500/year, or the same as a college kid can make working a few hours/week while in school...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago87
Most recent college graduates aren't able to find a job at all, so they are earning $0 per hour.
When they are able to find a job, it is usually in the $10 - $15 range.
The reason why your son got a $20 per hour gig is because he major in math and economics. Math is the M in STEM.
Did you calculate paying off the the $120,000 student debt along with accrued interest?
I agree, it seems like a lot of recent college graduates are tens of thousands of dollars in debt with no job. Had they gone to work at even a minimum wage job, they would be ahead of the game.
Scenario One:
18 year old goes to college to study history and find herself.
Has to borrow $30,000 a year to cover tuition, room & board, books, food, partying, cost of living, etc.
Graduates in four years.
Result: 22 years old, $120,000 in debt, no job prospects, broke, no work experience
Scenario Two:
18 year old gets a minimum wage job at $7.25 per hour and works 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year.
Gets a 3% cost of living raise after one year so is now earning $7.48 per hour.
Get a promotion after two years and is now earning $10 per hour.
Gets another 3% CoL raise after three years and is now earning $10.30 per hour.
After four years on the job gets another promotion and earns $12.50 per hour.
Result: 22 years old, no debt, has EARNED $72,862 dollars, has a JOB, four years work experience.
Which scenario is better?
I'll use my city to give a much better scenario.
18 year old lives at home and attends a community college for $2,000 per year.
Students starts working part-time for $8.00 an hour.
After 2 years, the student transfers to a local public university that costs $8,000 per year.
Student graduates with $20k in debt if he/she received no non-loan aid. Student graduates with less than $6k in debt if he/she qualified for the Pell Grant.
Student lands a job making $15-20 an hour.
If that student didn't go to college, he or she would probably be making $10-12 per hour in a job with no room left over for growth. The student making $15 an hour is making over $10k more per year than the high school graduate only making $10 per hour. The difference in income will pay off those student loans in no time. The college graduate is also much more likely to be employed. With working part-time while in college, that student is already well ahead of many college graduates who either never worked at all or only did a couple of summer internships.
I agree, it seems like a lot of recent college graduates are tens of thousands of dollars in debt with no job. Had they gone to work at even a minimum wage job, they would be ahead of the game.
Scenario One:
18 year old goes to college to study history and find herself.
Has to borrow $30,000 a year to cover tuition, room & board, books, food, partying, cost of living, etc.
Graduates in four years.
Result: 22 years old, $120,000 in debt, no job prospects, broke, no work experience
Scenario Two:
18 year old gets a minimum wage job at $7.25 per hour and works 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year.
Gets a 3% cost of living raise after one year so is now earning $7.48 per hour.
Get a promotion after two years and is now earning $10 per hour.
Gets another 3% CoL raise after three years and is now earning $10.30 per hour.
After four years on the job gets another promotion and earns $12.50 per hour.
Result: 22 years old, no debt, has EARNED $72,862 dollars, has a JOB, four years work experience.
Which scenario is better?
But how did the one in scenario #2 get a promotion/raise? They must be very lucky. Most jobs only pay you maybe $7.25 hr, (Which you'll be trapped in for the entire time) possibly no promotion opportunities.
Best thing is to get a job and take a few classes at a time. Might take longer but at least you're not spending money right away.
Or how about this?
Scenario #3
18 year old joins the military, saves up money, and goes to college after the service. Or, they join the reserve/national guard and serve while in school. Either way, they have no debt and military experience.
Most recent college graduates aren't able to find a job at all, so they are earning $0 per hour.
When they are able to find a job, it is usually in the $10 - $15 range.
The reason why your son got a $20 per hour gig is because he major in math and economics. Math is the M in STEM.
Did you calculate paying off the the $120,000 student debt along with accrued interest?
Math is a liberal arts degree. So is economics.
Most of his friends who have graduated got jobs within a year of graduating and they are all making well over $15 per hour to start. He is at a school that is in the top 50 in the USWR rankings but it's not a top 10 school.
None of his friends who have graduated have borrowed anywhere near $120K to go to school. The average amount of debt incurred by a college graduate is around $35K. I don't see why you wouldn't borrow $35K to earn $179K more in just 10 years. Lots of people borrow $35 to buy a car.
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I don't know where this idea that many/most people think a college degree "guarantees them a job" began but I suspect that it began among some political pundits with axes to grind and has been picked up by some posters on C-D and other sites who have an anti-intellectual bias.
