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Old 12-19-2012, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Bronx, New York
4,437 posts, read 7,673,992 times
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Did anyone read the NY Times, December 13, 2012 article, "Building a Showcase Campus, Using an I.O.U."?

The piece mentions the fact that, in order to attract more students, colleges are building more "inordinately lavish...buildings, dormitories and recreational facilities", leaving them "saddled with large amounts of debt."
The article also mentions that "oftentimes, students are stuck picking up the bill", in the form of rising tuition and student fees.

Which brings me to a education policy question: If students are flipping the bill for all this university construction and debt (Harvard is at $6 billion), Shouldn't they have more representation, and more voting power, at the Trustee table? I went to Syracuse undergrad and Baruch grad. Both Cuse and CUNY have only one representative to each school's Board of Trustees. Cuse's student board member does not get a vote, while at CUNY, the student rep is a voting member.

How do you feel about this?
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
607 posts, read 1,216,942 times
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Yep, I read that article. I agree with you, students should have more of a say in the university's decisions that affect them. But on the other hand, I don't think I would've been able to really understand an evaluate some of those decisions when I was a 20 yr old student.

I recently went to an alumni event where the university president gave a presentation on his plan for the institution's future. The majority of his presentation focused on the part of the plan to knock down academic and office buildings and rebuild them elsewhere on campus. I thought most of it was completely wasteful. I knew and still know some really great staff at the university who were fired or on wage freeze because of budget issues it made me mad. After that, I decided I won't be giving any donations to them, not unless the plan changes.
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:34 AM
 
Location: Michissippi
3,120 posts, read 8,064,729 times
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It's a good visual demonstration of the madness of the higher education bubble.
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Arizona
3,763 posts, read 6,710,907 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhaalspawn View Post
It's a good visual demonstration of the madness of the higher education bubble.
Which will burst
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Old 12-21-2012, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Chicago
6,025 posts, read 15,345,799 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhaalspawn View Post
It's a good visual demonstration of the madness of the higher education bubble.
It doesn't get more visual than this. Went to school close by and watched this blue monster go up:



"Thirty-two stories tall—and just enough off-kilter to be interesting—the $123 million mixed-use structure has been dubbed a "vertical campus" by its designers at Chicago-based VOA Associates...It's the second-tallest academic building in the United States, the sixth tallest in the world, and it's seeking a donor who wants to put his or her name on it: $25 million for 20 years, $50 million for forever. So far, no takers...But it's a gamble, launched by shouldering enormous debt just as the economy tanked and built during two years of diminished enrollment. This year, before payment on the new debt even fully kicks in, the university has had to cut 235 classes and slash its contribution to faculty pensions in order to balance its budget. With about 6,600 students on two campuses, a 2012 operating budget of $106 million, and a 92 percent dependence on tuition income, Roosevelt is carrying bond debt of $232 million...In December, Moody's dropped its long-term outlook on Roosevelt from stable to negative, while maintaining its medium investment grade rating. When all obligations are taken into account, Moody's says, the university has $248 million in direct debt and a debt-to-revenue ratio of 2.13 times, one of the highest of rated institutions."

Roosevelt University's towering ambition | Feature | Chicago Reader
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Old 12-23-2012, 07:16 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
1,051 posts, read 2,298,740 times
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Here's another visual example. The High Point University campus after $700 million in improvements is just a few years. Now it has the amenities of a resort rather than a college.



How did they do it? Simple - take out so many loans that the school gets downgraded to junk status, and massively cut minority and local enrollment in favor of rich New Englanders.

As for the original post, absolutely students should be given more representation at their schools. At my university, the only representation on the board of trustees is a non-voting seat for the student president. The Student Government Association has voted for 24/5 library hours every semester for the past few years. A simple proposal, and not unreasonably expensive. Yet, instead, the university is keeping five new unnecessary tutor positions for athletes, even though the school, not the UNC system, will be footing the bill.

No tuition without representation. The school should want to listen to the SGA and the Board of Trustees shouldn't be able to act independently of the needs of students.
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Old 12-24-2012, 05:15 AM
 
Location: Michissippi
3,120 posts, read 8,064,729 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eevee View Post
This year, before payment on the new debt even fully kicks in, the university has had to cut 235 classes and slash its contribution to faculty pensions in order to balance its budget. With about 6,600 students on two campuses, a 2012 operating budget of $106 million, and a 92 percent dependence on tuition income, Roosevelt is carrying bond debt of $232 million...In December, Moody's dropped its long-term outlook on Roosevelt from stable to negative, while maintaining its medium investment grade rating. When all obligations are taken into account, Moody's says, the university has $248 million in direct debt and a debt-to-revenue ratio of 2.13 times, one of the highest of rated institutions."
Fortunately for the Roosevelt business, if it doesn't work out or if the federal government ever shuts off the student loans tap, they can declare bankruptcy and its owners won't have to worry about ever paying any of it back--unlike its students who won't be able to discharge their student loans in bankruptcy.
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Old 12-24-2012, 05:16 AM
 
Location: Michissippi
3,120 posts, read 8,064,729 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSS94 View Post
Here's another visual example. The High Point University campus after $700 million in improvements is just a few years. Now it has the amenities of a resort rather than a college.
I've just coined a new term--Subprime Colleges.
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Old 12-24-2012, 05:36 AM
 
20,793 posts, read 61,308,820 times
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You have to look at WHY schools borrow money to pay for these buildings--they do it because it's CHEEP money, not because they HAVE to borrow the funds. They can borrow the funds for 2-3% while their endowments are earning 5-7+%, why wouldn't they borrow the funds. It's a competitive world out there and a LOT of money being spent on college. Schools need to keep up or die.
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Old 12-26-2012, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Central Ohio
10,834 posts, read 14,936,147 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scatman View Post
How do you feel about this?
I see it all the time.

The last one was a two story classroom building with four Class I chemistry and biology labs. Nothing special or hazardous about he lab buildings they were what you would expect at any high school chemistry class.

33,000 sq. ft. for $5.5 million or (which did not include the cost or the ground because the university already owned it) $166.00 per sq. ft..

Anytime you have angled or rounded walls, soffits, "floating cloud ceilings" and the like costs go up and and this building was full of them. Really, why do 19 year old kids need "floating cloud ceilings" to enhance their eating experience in the cafeteria? Can someone explain this to me because I would really like to know.

To give you an idea for what I do to hang 4" sch. 10 pipe I needed a piece of angle iron giving a section modulus of 0.25 which from the table a piece of 2"x2"x1/4" angle iron every 15' would have been just fine. To go heavier you gain nothing really and for what it is worth I've installed systems in hangers housing bombers for the Air Force all my trapeze hangers came right from that table.

Specifications called for 3"x3"x3/8" every spaced a maximum of 10' apart and not 15'.

But it got weirder... specifications called for us to prime and paint all hangers after installation and I have NEVER once in 37 years had to do this on any job where pipe and hangers were going to end up above a suspended ceiling. I've done projects at military bases and nuclear power plants and not once have I ever been made to do this.

A nothing special building with a light weight system I wanted to use standard UL Listed and Factory Mutual approved top beam clamps costing less than $1.00 each to hang the system but specifications called for a special C Clamp that ended up costing me $3.50 each and in the end wouldn't even work.

Here is how it works. Let's say I build manage the building houses and you come to me wanting me to oversee the building of your house. Fine, I will make sure it is all done right and I will only charge you 5% of the project cost for writing the specifications and 5% to oversee the work. I can tell you right now in the house that I will have built for you all interior walls will be framed out in 2"x8" oak studs... non of that 2"x4" pine garbage for you.

And non of that cheap pex or plastic plumbing pipe for you either. And forget the thinner walled Type L or M copper that most upper crest mansions use... for you only the finest and thickest Type K copper because I know you want the very best.

That 10% is looking better and better and better all the time!

But you can't complain either, when I am finally finished perhaps your house did cost twice as much as you thought it originally would but you did get the best built house around so you can't complain there.

In the end it is the students who end up paying for all this.

Bear in mind this wasn't just what I did but applied to everyone on the project.

Whenever government comes to me asking for more money for education I tell em to stick it where the sun don't shine. They would have plenty if they didn't waste it building monuments to their own arrogance.
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