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Maybe you should cringe a little, while you're at it. And a good show of crocodile tears would bolster this approach, too.
Or go in with a good lawyer, and keep your mouth shut unless/until the lawyer instructs you otherwise. You're dealing with one of the most ruthless kinds of bureaucracies extant in the United States, as you are beginning to find out.
Of course I used my school's "career connection" to find the employer first.
vs:
Quote:
Again although I initially sent my resume through several companies through that career resource site,,,,they contacted me through a brand new e-mail message which had no affiliation of the university.
For all I knew, it was Craigslist job scammers.
Then there is this:
Quote:
However I refuse to join any company that is scamlike and exploits college graduates
Can't say I blame you, but it's quite irrelevant since you have no obligation to join them and no obligation to even communicate with them.
Quote:
this company made me watch a 6minute youtube clip ..... told me we are available on this day only .... and best of all they were located in a city that was no where close to my current university......
First, no one made you watch anything. That is silly and not something I would repeat to anyone else down the line.
Next - welcome to life. Many out of city employers will recruit across the country - especially if they are looking to supplement their local talent base. There are universities that are well known for not having their student retain in their community. This is nothing new. If those companies are only available on a limited schedule and you want to work for them it's on you to fit their timeline. If not you can find another company and they can find another student. Not a big deal and nothing to take personally. Why would you get offended when a company is very open in acting in a way that makes you not want to work there? Also, just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for others.
Again though, this is irrelevant as it doesn't make you act in an unprofessional way to a company you know your school has a relationship with.
Quote:
I just don't know why standing up for myself and other college grads is a bad thing. It is a 100% telemarketing firm which preys on "college grads hoping to make millions" right after college. I did not go through 4 years at uni to just read a script to sell insurance people don't need.
Explain how you stood up for other college grads? All you did was insult a hiring manager and put yourself in a bad situation with your university - a result that should have been pretty obvious.
If you really wanted to help your other college grads, bring reasoned facts to a debate with the parties responsible to having them listed on your connections server, start a dialogue with your dean, fellow students, professors, etc. Work within your community and people who actually have influence. Sending an irate e-mail to a hiring manager doesn't stop anyone else from applying there, doesn't prevent them from getting listed, isn't going to have them magically change their business practices - it's only going to reflect poorly on you. You need to accept this fact before speaking further with people in your administration.
So it comes back to two angles you have.
Maintain that you didn't know the company had any affiliation with the university and you thought it was a scammer coming off a list which is why you responded harshly or understand that you were very much in the wrong in the way you handled this, apologize to the university with a suggestion on how to make things right, solicit their advice on how you can help make this right and maintain your standing within the university - may not be a bad time to talk about how much you love the university, how involved you have been so far and how you look forward to representing them throughout your career and how this has helped you learn that my actions not only reflect on myself, but also on my university, my family, my friends and my community
The last bit of confusion is this:
Quote:
Again although I initially sent my resume through several companies through that career resource site
It definitely sounds like you sent your resume to this company, they were interested in you as a candidate and sent you information and then you got upset and flew off the handle at them - I hope you understand how this makes your university look.
I had internships built into my schooling - there were bad job interviews and sometimes the people doing the interview were pretty insulting .... not every job is going to be a match, but all you can control is your actions ... in those instances I thanked them for the consideration and walked knowing I wouldn't ever work there so I learned something for my time as well. I ended up in overall fantastic jobs and someone would end up in that job - usually the people who couldn't beat me out for the fantastic job.
Everyone has different options and you just went and limited yours based on a job you didn't want.
I remember one call that wasn't through my university - was with Primerica ... not a company I have a lot of respect for and I understand their general model .... definitely not a company for me .... I had my resume floating and got a call from one of their hiring managers - She asked if I had heard of their company, I stated that I had - She asked me if I was interested in taking a position with them, I stated I was not - She then blew up at me telling me that I was wasting a great opportunity, that I was a fool for not wanting to put in the effort to make a ton of money and it was a giant mistake to turn them down - I said I understand your viewpoint, but at this time the position is not right for me and I don't think we'd be a match, thanked them for their interest and hung up the phone ........ I never heard from them again, my perception of Primerica definitely didn't improve and that 5 minute phone call is just an amusing footnote in my life
Do the appropriate thing to make this a footnote in yours or even maybe part of a defining chapter of transitioning into adulthood
This is absurd. Free speech doesn't apply here. You have the right to free speech and you have the right to waive free speech. When the OP decided to attend the university, he agreed to the bylaws of the university. The university is allowed to react appropriately should the student breach the agreement.
Are you an experienced constitutional lawyer? If not, you don't know jack about whether free speech applies here or not, That's why OP needs competent legal advice before going before the kangaroos. On what basis do you waive your constitutional rights simply by becoming a student? What does case law have to say? Did he sign anything agreeing to waive these rights? Has the University ever distributed its bylaws to its students? Even credit card providers at least show their customers the terms that they are agreeing to.
The university cannot expel a student without cause. If we have all of the facts, it seems likely that he has not committed any kind of offense. No student represents a university in a legal sense.
By the way, my only advice is to consult and engage a lawyer. Unless you (hsnq) are a lawyer who practices in this area, your opinion is worth very little. Everything here revolves around case law in OP's particular state and Constitutional law regarding freedom of speech.
I can't believe how cowardly Americans have become with regard to their hard-won constitutional rights, and how subservient so many have become to any kind of abusive authority.
Are you intentionally being difficult? The school isn't 'without cause', the OP misrepresented the university. You don't have a constitutional right to misrepresent an institution that you voluntarily joined.
Put if this way, if you walked around outside your company at work with a megaphone shouting how you hate the company and they are all a**holes, do you think that your company doesn't have every right to fire you?
Can't say I blame you, but it's quite irrelevant since you have no obligation to join them and no obligation to even communicate with them.
First, no one made you watch anything. That is silly and not something I would repeat to anyone else down the line.
Next - welcome to life. Many out of city employers will recruit across the country - especially if they are looking to supplement their local talent base. There are universities that are well known for not having their student retain in their community. This is nothing new. If those companies are only available on a limited schedule and you want to work for them it's on you to fit their timeline. If not you can find another company and they can find another student. Not a big deal and nothing to take personally. Why would you get offended when a company is very open in acting in a way that makes you not want to work there? Also, just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for others.
Again though, this is irrelevant as it doesn't make you act in an unprofessional way to a company you know your school has a relationship with.
Explain how you stood up for other college grads? All you did was insult a hiring manager and put yourself in a bad situation with your university - a result that should have been pretty obvious.
If you really wanted to help your other college grads, bring reasoned facts to a debate with the parties responsible to having them listed on your connections server, start a dialogue with your dean, fellow students, professors, etc. Work within your community and people who actually have influence. Sending an irate e-mail to a hiring manager doesn't stop anyone else from applying there, doesn't prevent them from getting listed, isn't going to have them magically change their business practices - it's only going to reflect poorly on you. You need to accept this fact before speaking further with people in your administration.
So it comes back to two angles you have.
Maintain that you didn't know the company had any affiliation with the university and you thought it was a scammer coming off a list which is why you responded harshly or understand that you were very much in the wrong in the way you handled this, apologize to the university with a suggestion on how to make things right, solicit their advice on how you can help make this right and maintain your standing within the university - may not be a bad time to talk about how much you love the university, how involved you have been so far and how you look forward to representing them throughout your career and how this has helped you learn that my actions not only reflect on myself, but also on my university, my family, my friends and my community
The last bit of confusion is this:
It definitely sounds like you sent your resume to this company, they were interested in you as a candidate and sent you information and then you got upset and flew off the handle at them - I hope you understand how this makes your university look.
I had internships built into my schooling - there were bad job interviews and sometimes the people doing the interview were pretty insulting .... not every job is going to be a match, but all you can control is your actions ... in those instances I thanked them for the consideration and walked knowing I wouldn't ever work there so I learned something for my time as well. I ended up in overall fantastic jobs and someone would end up in that job - usually the people who couldn't beat me out for the fantastic job.
Everyone has different options and you just went and limited yours based on a job you didn't want.
I remember one call that wasn't through my university - was with Primerica ... not a company I have a lot of respect for and I understand their general model .... definitely not a company for me .... I had my resume floating and got a call from one of their hiring managers - She asked if I had heard of their company, I stated that I had - She asked me if I was interested in taking a position with them, I stated I was not - She then blew up at me telling me that I was wasting a great opportunity, that I was a fool for not wanting to put in the effort to make a ton of money and it was a giant mistake to turn them down - I said I understand your viewpoint, but at this time the position is not right for me and I don't think we'd be a match, thanked them for their interest and hung up the phone ........ I never heard from them again, my perception of Primerica definitely didn't improve and that 5 minute phone call is just an amusing footnote in my life
Do the appropriate thing to make this a footnote in yours or even maybe part of a defining chapter of transitioning into adulthood
The school's career resource center is basically a site similar to monster. You attach your resume on your profile and press apply. Then the company will either contact you through phone or email. Again I have applied through countless jobs on various sites and when I received this e-mail, there was no attachment regarding my university.
They didn't make me watch the youtube clip...but they specifically said please watch this video about our CEO before coming into office.
They are targeting college kids who are desperate for jobs. In the video about the CEO of that corp, it specifically mentions college grads, new, inexperienced, countless times. I told them to "F off" so that they stop doing what they are doing. The most I can do in the least amount of time I had.
"Maintain that you didn't know the company had any affiliation with the university and you thought it was a scammer coming off a list which is why you responded harshly or understand that you were very much in the wrong in the way you handled this, apologize to the university with a suggestion on how to make things right, solicit their advice on how you can help make this right and maintain your standing within the university - may not be a bad time to talk about how much you love the university, how involved you have been so far and how you look forward to representing them throughout your career and how this has helped you learn that my actions not only reflect on myself, but also on my university, my family, my friends and my community" THANK you, very good advice =]
Again I have had countless interviews with similar telemarketing/cold calls, and I have never blown up on them. This corporation did not even list the job description on the list and lured grads in with, "working personally with the CEO" "26year old making 275k a year"
Are you intentionally being difficult? The school isn't 'without cause', the OP misrepresented the university. You don't have a constitutional right to misrepresent an institution that you voluntarily joined.
Put if this way, if you walked around outside your company at work with a megaphone shouting how you hate the company and they are all a**holes, do you think that your company doesn't have every right to fire you?
What do you think that the word "misrepresent" actually means? He didn't misrepresent anything (assuming that the fact pattern we have is truthful and complete). Are you trying to say that he represented the university poorly, meaning that he didn't come off as the glib yuppie that they would rather have as their mascot?
Regarding employment -- Labor law has nothing to do with this situation. Moreover, it makes no difference what you or I think -- the only thing that matters here is case law. People outside the legal profession can never seem to quite get this through their heads. Law is based completely on precedent, not on what you or I might think is proper logic (although the two often coincide).
The OP sent them his resume and they contacted him. His reaction was way, way over the top and he knew it; that's why he used his personal email to contact them. He thought that would distance his foul mouthed diatribe from his position as a student. He seems fond of this idea of duality, that sometimes he's acting as a student and sometimes he's little Mr. Meanie. The university feels that since the contact was made through the career center, it's their business. I don't know if that is right or not. I suspect it depends on their code of conduct. In my opinion, the OP deserves some sort o punishment since he does not seem to understand that he did anything wrong. I'm just glad he's not working for me. I'd hate to see his reaction when I used him like trash by asking him to make a copy or something.
Holy crap is this bad advice. The school can do whatever they want. Being a student isn't a legally protected class. You certainly have the right to free speech, but the school also has a full right to expel students.
So you are advocating for the OP to represent the school poorly, be belligerent and offensive simply because he doesn't like the duties and pay of a potential job, and then threaten to sue the school on top of it? That might be the worst advice I have heard in a long, long time.
Yeah, this too:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest
This is absurd. Free speech doesn't apply here. You have the right to free speech and you have the right to waive free speech. When the OP decided to attend the university, he agreed to the bylaws of the university. The university is allowed to react appropriately should the student breach the agreement.
As for this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish Forbes
The university cannot expel a student without cause. If we have all of the facts, it seems likely that he has not committed any kind of offense. No student represents a university in a legal sense.
By the way, my only advice is to consult and engage a lawyer. Unless you (hsnq) are a lawyer who practices in this area, your opinion is worth very little. Everything here revolves around case law in OP's particular state and Constitutional law regarding freedom of speech.
I can't believe how cowardly Americans have become with regard to their hard-won constitutional rights, and how subservient so many have become to any kind of abusive authority.
I can't believe how many people don't really understand that you agree to a certain code of conduct when willfully joining an organization. If I go to a company sponsored networking event and meet a vendor I think is shady, then later that night bump into him at the bar and curse him out - I have a good chance of losing my job regardless if they really are a POS or not.
I've grabbed some snippets from my schools code of conduct - something I agreed to follow as a condition to my acceptance of enrollment
Quote:
The student is responsible for knowledge of these policies, rules, regulations, and standards of conduct; enrollment is considered as acceptance of all conditions specified in this handbook.
Quote:
The university also expects that every student abide by the laws of the United States and the State. The university subscribes to the view that, where practical, it shall deal with matters of student misconduct internally. However, where student misconduct implicates federal, state, or local laws, the appropriate law enforcement officials may be contacted.
Quote:
The university strives to be a leader in the higher education world, and expects students' conduct to reflect the highest standards of global citizenship. Therefore, all students should conduct themselves responsibly and in a manner that reflects favorably upon themselves and the University. When students do not conduct themselves responsibly, fail to recognize or violate the rights and privileges of other individuals, or behave in a manner inconsistent with University policies, rules, regulations, or standards of conduct, formal disciplinary action may result.
The Student Conduct process at the university reflects the University's concern that students maintain high standards. It provides procedural protections to any student charged with a violation of a University policy, rule, regulation, or standard of conduct. The Student Conduct process attempts to foster personal learning and growth, while at the same time holding individuals and organizations accountable for unacceptable behavior.
Quote:
Cases of alleged violations of University policies, rules, regulations, or standards of conduct are handled through the University conduct process for the following:
Full-time or part-time undergraduate, graduate, and/or continuing education students.
All recognized student organizations.
Behaviors occurring on and off campus.
Quote:
If a student engages in prohibited activity on behalf of their student organization, both the student and the student organization may be charged with a violation(s) of the code of conduct.
Quote:
It is incumbent upon every student to familiarize himself/herself with the standards of conduct that the University requires of all members of its community. All conduct that violates those policies, including any conduct that occurs off campus but which, in the University's sole judgment, has a direct and immediate effect on the discipline and general welfare of the University and/or the pursuit of the University's mission, shall be subject to the University's conduct process.
Quote:
The Assistant Dean of Student Conduct and Community Standards or designee directs the efforts of students, faculty, and staff Conduct Board members in matters involving student behavior.
Responsibilities include:
Receiving and reviewing formal complaints.
Advising parties of the conduct process.
Supervising, training, and advising the Conduct Board members.
Maintaining all student conduct records.
Collecting and disseminating research and analysis concerning student conduct.
Submitting quarterly statistical reports, reporting the number of cases referred to the office, the number of cases resulting in disciplinary action, and the range of sanctions imposed.
Quote:
Filing a Disciplinary Complaint
Any person may file a formal complaint against any student or student organization for alleged violation(s) of a University policy, rule, regulation, or standard of conduct. Such complaints, which must be signed by the complainant, shall be forwarded to the Office of Student Conduct and Community Standards.
The person(s) making the complaint shall provide in writing the following information:
The name and address of the student(s) involved or a sufficient description of the student and premises involved in order to identify the individual.
Date, time, and location (if applicable) of incident.
The nature of the alleged violation.
A detailed statement of the circumstances.
There is then pages on the actual process of how the review process works once there is a complaint, different types of processes for different cases, etc.
Quote:
Any person may bring charges against a student or student organization (hereafter “student”) for alleged misconduct. The accused student has the right to a hearing. The university endorses as students’ rights the following procedural protections:
The Conduct Board consists of those students, faculty, and staff who serve both on the University Hearing Board and/or the University Appellate Board. No member of the Conduct Board who is otherwise interested in the particular case will serve during the proceeding.
Students will be informed, in writing, of the nature of the complaint against them and in sufficient time to ensure an opportunity to prepare for the hearing.
Any student involved in the conduct process will have the right to be assisted in his/her case by an advisor internal to the University. Though the student conduct process does not allow the accused to be represented by an attorney during the process (including the Pre-hearing Conference and Conduct/Appeal Board hearings), the University will allow such advisement if criminal charges are pending concurrent to the University proceedings. Proof of such charges must be presented to the Office of Student Conduct and Community Standards by 5:00 p.m. the business day preceding the scheduled hearing/conference. During such time, the attorney may only advise his/her client and may not speak during the proceedings and/or serve as an active participant in the process. The Office of Student Conduct and Community Standards has the right and authority to excuse the attorney should his/her behavior be deemed inappropriate during the process.
The student has the right to request from the Department of Public Safety that any confiscated items be returned to them. This request must be made within seven (7) business days of the confiscation. The approval of requests and the manner/mode by which the request is granted is at the sole discretion of the Department of Public Safety.
The burden of proof will rest upon the person(s) bringing the complaint.
The student will be given an opportunity to present his/her case, including the presentation of information and witnesses. The Assistant Dean of Student Conduct and Community Standards or designee has sole discretion whether to allow witness names and/or supporting documentation from either party after the stated deadline for submission has passed.
S/he will have an opportunity to hear and question witnesses. In no case will the Conduct Board consider statements against a charged student unless s/he has been advised of their content and of the names of those who submitted the disciplinary complaint and unless the student has been given an opportunity to rebut the unfavorable inferences that might otherwise be drawn.
All matters upon which the decision may be based must be introduced before the Conduct Board. The decision will be based solely upon such matters.
A student will have the right to appeal an adverse decision against him/her.
Proceedings before the Office of Student Conduct and Community Standards staff, all hearing officers, the Conduct Board, and the Appellate Board are private, subject to the provisions of the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA) or other legal requirements.
Quote:
Penalties and sanctions that may be imposed include, but are not limited to, the following: Expulsion, Withdrawl of (Rescind) Degree, Witholding a Degree, Suspension, Deferred Suspension, Loss of Housing, Deferred Loss of Housing, Ban from University Housing, Housing Reassignment, Restricted Access, Disciplinary Probation, Assignment of a Constructive/Educational Task, Hold on Records, Notification of Parent or Legal Guardian, Fine, Restitution, Disciplinary Reprimand, Interim Suspension
If I were you I'd forget about digging in your heels and shouting about free speech. It sounds like the dean gave you the worst case scenario because he was upset that you didn't seem to understand your actions were wrong.
Get a copy of your handbook.
Read it.
Understand the process. Understand the discipline options.
If it were me I'd go in and state that I understand that I didn't act appropriately, mention your desire to remain in good standing with the university and offer to apologize to any offended parties, take a disciplinary reprimand and then offer to speak during one of those many ethics classes you took to underclass students about the importance of always reflecting positively on your university and yourself and how your actions influence how people look at everyone else in that room. Also state that you are appreciative to be part of a community where students can make mistakes and learn from them - even mistakes that put the university in a tough spot.
Last edited by Finger Laker; 03-01-2013 at 02:51 PM..
What do you think that the word "misrepresent" actually means? He didn't misrepresent anything (assuming that the fact pattern we have is truthful and complete). Are you trying to say that he represented the university poorly, meaning that he didn't come off as the glib yuppie that they would rather have as their mascot?
the OP absolutely misrepresented the university! He cursed a potential employer out and represented the university as some sort of a**hole who can't hold his temper. Why on earth would the college ever be OK with someone acting like that? You chose to go to a school, you follow their rules.
Quote:
Regarding employment -- Labor law has nothing to do with this situation. Moreover, it makes no difference what you or I think -- the only thing that matters here is case law. People outside the legal profession can never seem to quite get this through their heads. Law is based completely on precedent, not on what you or I might think is proper logic (although the two often coincide).
There is absolutely no law that protects freedom of speech within an organization. Freedom of speech says that he cannot be arrested or tried for flying off the handle, it absolutely never says that he cannot be kicked out of a school because of something he says. Some time ago a high school student, Austin Carroll, was expelled for saying the f-word online using a school's computer. The ACLU refused to become involved in the case because the school was within their rights.
Freedom of speech doesn't mean you have carte blanche to say whatever you want, whenever you want.
The school's career resource center is basically a site similar to monster. You attach your resume on your profile and press apply. Then the company will either contact you through phone or email. Again I have applied through countless jobs on various sites and when I received this e-mail, there was no attachment regarding my university.
They didn't make me watch the youtube clip...but they specifically said please watch this video about our CEO before coming into office.
They are targeting college kids who are desperate for jobs. In the video about the CEO of that corp, it specifically mentions college grads, new, inexperienced, countless times. I told them to "F off" so that they stop doing what they are doing. The most I can do in the least amount of time I had.
That's the way many schools career resource centers are. It's your responsibility to keep track to the positions you apply to.
On a side note, it's wise to understand at least the basics of the company before applying to them. Why waste anyones time for a position that wouldn't work.
They are within their right to target college kids desperate for a job - many kids fit this bill. If you don't that's fine.
If you have a moral objection then do something about it.
"The most I can do in the least amount of time I had" is really a worthless saying - you did nothing. The best result you could expect in any reasonable outcome is nothing. If they have pages of negative google results, do you really think expressing your dissatisfactions with them directly is going to change their business practices? If so, that is a pretty immense ego.
So it's either something you care about - in which case you take the time and energy to bring it up to your university and let them know that this place looks like a scam and in your opinion it's not the quality of employer we should have on our jobsite. Or you can move on and do nothing because it's not worth your time.
You know what the kicker is? What they did that had the most impact in probably even less time it took you to create your e-mail was to forward it on to the university with a complaint. Now you will have to spend a lot more time and energy dealing with this, putting your hard work over the past 3 years in jeopardy and the company will continue on as everything is normal and never think about you again and even if you come out OK you'll only be a kid with a grudge because they got you in trouble which will diminish the legitimacy of your objections to them.
They've already won and it was a simple and effortless strike.
Just limit your loss.
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