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We already are spending huge amounts of societal resources training excess numbers of people for non-existent job positions.
What is needed is some analysis of what types of education helps to improve the economy. What majors actually have a chance of making a contribution to the national economy? Don't STEM majors have a better chance of contributing than psychology, sociology, sports management, women's studies, African American Studies, economics, history, English Language and Literature, political science and pre-law?
Is the US better off if 30%, 50% or 90% of the population have bachelor's degrees? Would we be better off if some of that 30% were trained as plumbers, electricians, welders, mechanics, machinists or bricklayers?
The list of the Top 10 College Majors is interesting. How many psychology, English Language and Literature, economics, communications and political science majors does this country need? I was also surprised I didn't see sports management on the list since I hear about more and more students majoring in that field. I don't have a problem with the number of business majors since this gives people a general background in accounting, business law, statistics, finance and economics. It is a better background for an entry level job than psychology, sociology English lit or political science.
The question comes down to is it economically feasible to for society to spend so much money on higher education, and if so, on what specific fields? I have seen first hand how many college students have no interest in the classes they are taking. They end up migrating to some major that allows them to graduate with a degree. Are we better off as a country because people have college degrees?
As has been said many times before on this forum, there are a lot of jobs where one just needs a college degree; it doesn't matter in what. My brother has a BA in history and had a career in human resources. The reason you didn't see sports management is b/c although you are hearing a lot about it, it is not one of the top 10 majors. That's the problem with taking this pop culture stuff reported by the media seriously.
Many of these majors are a foundation for grad school, as well. Lots of poli sci majors go to law school, for ex. As far as the background of MBA candidates, "Business and Management" covers a lot of majors. The University of Colorado Leeds School of Business offers the following undergrad majors:
Program: Earn a B.S. in business administration with a chosen area of emphasis: Accounting, Finance, Management (Human Resources, Operations, Information Management), or Marketing. You may also choose an area of application or certificate: Entrepreneurial Studies, International Business, Real Estate, Quantitative Finance, or Operations and Information Management. Leeds School of Business | Undergraduate Admissions | CU-Boulder
Some of these are "fluff" and some aren't. Interestingly, the University of Pittsburgh, which you referenced, is where I did my undergrad and where the football players were majoring in business. I bet they were mostly in "management" or "marketing", not the math related stuff.
I don't think people should major in something just because they can make a lot of money at it. I do not know if there is a shortage of plumbers, electricians, welders, mechanics, machinists or bricklayers. Do you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAniacTHW
Well, psychology alone is growing at (I believe it was) 28% over the next ten years. Also, anybody with an undergrad degree will learn statistics, and most common maths, which are a little more in depth than finance. The problem with business degrees comes from their similarity to liberal arts. It is a really soft major. I took two business classes and wondered why those people were in college to begin with. You will learn the same stuff from most other majors. For example, take sociology. Now, take marketing. Notice a difference? I sure as hell didn't.
Yes. There will never be a problem with more people being educated. To be honest, most of the people I meet on the street (now, lets be fair, I do live in Florida) are pretty stupid. I think certain classes should be mandatory for everybody. Such as sociology, law, American government...
I do not know if there is a shortage of plumbers, electricians, welders, mechanics, machinists or bricklayers. Do you?
In some cases, there are labor shortages in those fields and others, but one problem is that the shortages are "fragile" - there may be a shortage, but in raw numbers, the shortage isn't composed of all that many jobs. So if it becomes "trendy" to train in that area, it is subject to very rapid saturation and then oversaturation.
Wow! Surgeon's fees are too much. Bill Gates is a bum, as is Zuckerman and others who take ideas and actually do something with the ideas. Oh, that bumbling surgeon, pooh on what it cost getting to where he is. SOUR GRAPES by the ones who never accomplished anything worth mentioning. Blah, blah, blah.... Lemme have a cheapskate operation. Oh, yeah! I don't want that surgeon increasing his bank account from me. NOT! Oh, you don't want a cheap operation? You want a first class procedure by a top-notch physician? Ohhh! You just want it to be free. Ok, I get it.
Wow! Surgeon's fees are too much. Bill Gates is a bum, as is Zuckerman and others who take ideas and actually do something with the ideas. Oh, that bumbling surgeon, pooh on what it cost getting to where he is. SOUR GRAPES by the ones who never accomplished anything worth mentioning. Blah, blah, blah.... Lemme have a cheapskate operation. Oh, yeah! I don't want that surgeon increasing his bank account from me. NOT! Oh, you don't want a cheap operation? You want a first class procedure by a top-notch physician? Ohhh! You just want it to be free. Ok, I get it.
The entire goal of capitalism is to get quality stuff you demand for as close to free as possible. Why do you think Zuckerburg is writing a piece that screams "think of the children!" and then goes on to talk about how we need to drastically increase the number of Hb-1 visas? Hint: because he wants quality labor at as cheap a price as possible.
Self interest...Its not that hard to identify and it is almost always a valid assumption that folks are laboring under their own.
Last edited by Randomstudent; 04-13-2013 at 03:57 PM..
"psychology alone is growing at (I believe it was) 28% over the next ten years" Could you please cite a source for this statement. Who will be hiring these people?
I'm not sure if this lists numbers or not, but it does provide a decent read about the job outlook for psychology.
I agree with the statement about marketing classes being worthless. Marketing is specific to the product or service, making it difficult to teach to undergraduate students.
I wont argue this point. All I'm arguing is that most business classes are identical to other classed without a business title. Bus. Tech & Communication: A mix of the mandatory computer course and mandatory English class, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1
There will never be a problem with people being more educated but how much is enough? We have people getting bachelor's and master degrees who can't write a cover letter. I know because I have read them. What if our elementary and secondary schools did a better job of educating students? Would they still need that degree in sports management or women's studies? What if our vo-tech school and community colleges did a better job of technical training? There is nothing majic about graduating with a bachelor's degree or getting a high school diploma. They don't make you educated.
This I believe we can both agree on. Public school is failing, miserably. And I wont say it's lack of qualified teachers, but the budgets they're given to work on. The thing that threw me off most when I started at my CC was how much misinformation I learned in school.
Whether or not there's an emphasis on STEM or not, the only way they're going to get more engineering grads is to make it easier. ABET is not going to allow that.
As has been said many times before on this forum, there are a lot of jobs where one just needs a college degree; it doesn't matter in what. My brother has a BA in history and had a career in human resources.
Two points here:
1. if you just need a college degree then it is an artificial requirement. I used to fight with HR people over this with hiring IT people. I didn't care if they had a degree and HR wanted to make it a requirement, which just eliminated some of the most qualified people.
2. Just because your brother got a job in HR with a history degree doesn't mean it is common. Today you need a relevent degree and internships to even get an interview.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAniacTHW
I'm not sure if this lists numbers or not, but it does provide a decent read about the job outlook for psychology.
I wont argue this point. All I'm arguing is that most business classes are identical to other classed without a business title. Bus. Tech & Communication: A mix of the mandatory computer course and mandatory English class, etc.
This I believe we can both agree on. Public school is failing, miserably. And I wont say it's lack of qualified teachers, but the budgets they're given to work on. The thing that threw me off most when I started at my CC was how much misinformation I learned in school.
RE: Psychology's growth careers, this is a 2008 article from the American Psychological Association discussing job prospects for psychologists. First of all, these jobs require a PhD and second, I question how unbiased the APA is about discussing employment prospects in their field.
Quote:
Originally Posted by burgler09
Whether or not there's an emphasis on STEM or not, the only way they're going to get more engineering grads is to make it easier. ABET is not going to allow that.
There is no similarity between a business communications course and a typical English writing course. But what most people don't get enough of in school is learning to communicate orally and in writing.
So you're saying they should dumb the programs down to graduate more engineers? Wouldn't we be better off encouraging high school students to to take more math and science and providing the resources to help make them successful in college engineering programs?
Two points here:
There is no similarity between a business communications course and a typical English writing course. But what most people don't get enough of in school is learning to communicate orally and in writing.
So you're saying they should dumb the programs down to graduate more engineers? Wouldn't we be better off encouraging high school students to to take more math and science and providing the resources to help make them successful in college engineering programs?
No, I'm saying I'm happy how it is.
There is no amount of high school education that is going to prepare a student for the curriculum of an engineering student, it's flat out not possible. You can take any country, most of the students from their high schools are not going to pass an engineering curriculum. Whether you push more people in that direction or not, it comes down to whether or not they can pass the classes.
Look at a freshman class, every student is pre-med. They don't last because they can't pass the classes. It is rigorous here in the united states, and that's what makes us elite.
As I said, if we want more STEM students, we have to make the curriculum easier. I don't want that, it would be stupid.
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