Young adult picks a fight with my son at the university - Unbelievable (private, professor)
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OP: Parents send their kids to school, buying into the myth that everyone is nice and has the same values that they have. Most people would be shocked about what happens on a college campus (because they believe the ivory tower myth). Just because someone is at college does not mean that they are not liars, cheats, thieves, sexual predators, or someone who shouldn't be in prison. Actually, those of us who have spent a lot of time working at universities and dealing with student issues are astounded that you are astounded. A university is a city of 10,000 or 20,000 or 50,000 or whatever. Assaults and criminal damaging occurs on a regular basis because crimes happen at universities, just like everywhere else in the world. An MIT officer was just shot and killed on campus and you are shocked that your son was pushed by someone lacking in social skills? Like most parents, your naivete (in these posts) is telling. I'm not saying it is appropriate to push people but I am saying that you need a reality check about life on campus.
Depending on the structure of the university, an academic dean may have zero say in the student disciple process. You need to find out who runs that campus' administrative judicial process. At the universities I have worked at academic deans have zero to due with official student discipline issues.
No one gets kicked out of school for pushing somebody. If the kid who pushed your son is found responsible, he will be told that it is not nice to push people, he will probable be given a "no contact" order (meaning he is not to have any contact with your son), and he may have to write a paper reflecting on what he has learned from this experience. He may be placed on conduct probation.
Nobody picks a fight with you because you told them to go to the bathroom and blow your nose. I'm sure there was a lot more said.
Why did he have to go tell the professor? That was silly. Fights happened all the time when I was in college (though not in class) and I went to a top school. You call them adults. They're not. They're pot smoking kids.
Either way, if you act like a dbag to dbags, fights happen.
I would have just ignored it. People show up sick to class all the time.
wow what college did you go to ?? assume much dont you , pot smoking kids ? how do you know they smoke pot ? not everyone in college smokes pot by the way .
I would have kept my mouth shut if I was your son. Why?
Because you risk getting yourself into a situation like this.
Unless you're prepared to deal with the multitude of consequences that could arise (verbal altercation, pushing, fighting) then you shouldn't really say anything.
Just as this other student probably has bullied some people, I'm sure your son has gotten in other people's business and never been called out on it either.
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Fighting is in this setting "low-class" but it's not an unexpected outcome. I'm not saying that your son should have fought back, but that he's thankful that it wasn't worse than it was.
And if a first response for this other kid was a shove, then a shove back is what he'd be accustomed to.
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If I did find myself in this situation, I would have probably let the professor of the class know (as your son did), as pushing people and feeling threatened at school isn't a good environment to be in.
Moral: If you want to be in the business of correcting other's behavior, you better know what you're doing.
Nobody picks a fight with you because you told them to go to the bathroom and blow your nose.
I wouldn't say nobody.
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I'm sure there was a lot more said.
Assuming you are right, it still is no reason to initiate an act of physical aggression.
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Why did he have to go tell the professor? That was silly. Fights happened all the time when I was in college (though not in class) and I went to a top school. You call them adults. They're not. They're pot smoking kids.
I did not go to a top school and never saw a fight. The reason why it should be reported is that this is obviously an imbalanced person. This is not this person's first act of aggression like this. What is your objection? Is it the fact that he reported it or it was to the professor? Would you feel the same way if it was your mother who was taking a class and a male student started shoving her?
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Either way, if you act like a dbag to dbags, fights happen.
You are making the assumption that my son was wrong in his request. I would have said the same thing to the student.
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I would have just ignored it. People show up sick to class all the time.
Ah, okay. Social conventions be damned, right? Even my eighth graders have better manners.
For everyone else: Please respond to my actual inquiry which was a question as to how this handled from an administrative standpoint. For those of you who want to discuss how bad you think my son behaved due to some imaginary inferences you have made or that my son needs to resort to physical violence first and foremost, that is not the purpose of this thread.
If you have experience with this, I would very much appreciate hearing about it.
@finger laker: Fights happen on university property on a regular basis but they are relatively uncommon in academic areas. There is not any liabilty issue for the university unless a court finds them negligent in some manner. If you are walking down the street of your hometown and you get punched, do you think you are going to sue the city? Likewise with a college. The college does not make a promise to protect and courts have ruled time and again that there is no duty to protect.
You son should have just moved his seat if the guy was disturbing him. I am not condoning the guy, but seriously. In this day and age you don't confront a stranger if they are not personally doing something to you.
OP: Parents send their kids to school, buying into the myth that everyone is nice and has the same values that they have. Most people would be shocked about what happens on a college campus (because they believe the ivory tower myth). Just because someone is at college does not mean that they are not liars, cheats, thieves, sexual predators, or someone who shouldn't be in prison. Actually, those of us who have spent a lot of time working at universities and dealing with student issues are astounded that you are astounded. A university is a city of 10,000 or 20,000 or 50,000 or whatever. Assaults and criminal damaging occurs on a regular basis because crimes happen at universities, just like everywhere else in the world. An MIT officer was just shot and killed on campus and you are shocked that your son was pushed by someone lacking in social skills? Like most parents, your naivete (in these posts) is telling. I'm not saying it is appropriate to push people but I am saying that you need a reality check about life on campus.
Depending on the structure of the university, an academic dean may have zero say in the student disciple process. You need to find out who runs that campus' administrative judicial process. At the universities I have worked at academic deans have zero to due with official student discipline issues.
No one gets kicked out of school for pushing somebody. If the kid who pushed your son is found responsible, he will be told that it is not nice to push people, he will probable be given a "no contact" order (meaning he is not to have any contact with your son), and he may have to write a paper reflecting on what he has learned from this experience. He may be placed on conduct probation.
I've been to college. I graduated with my first degree 15 years ago and have continued to take classes and will again this fall. I have never seen violence. Ever.
He wasn't at a frat party. He was leaving an engineering class.
I understand what goes on at universities by some students. I know people lie, cheat, etc. That doesn't mean it is acceptable or should be tolerated.
I'm scratchin' my head. I can't believe that more people in this forum are upset with my son for making a reasonable request than with someone who has violent tendencies. I guess the demographic in here is a wee bit different than I thought.
OP im hoping that the deen will take care of this matter and Im sorry this happened to your son . I have sons too . I went to college as well and I have never seen things handled better than at the administrative level than I have at my college . But anyways I hope that it gets settled if it does not and something happens to your son < God forbid . The school is liable and you should remind the deen of that and get everything that is said in writing and also get it on tape if possible and also make sure that you make the deen aware that his conversation is being recorded . If he does not want to talk then make note of that as well . time , date and how long the conversation took . am I being ridiculous no im not and neither are you and I wish you luck please come back and tell us how this matter gets resolved thanks .
College today is not the same as the college of 15 years ago. Your experience as a commuter will also be markedly different than the experiences of an on-campus resident.
I do not condone the actions of the kid who pushed your son; I feel that universities do not adequately address the issue. IMO, anyone who assaults another without provocation needs to be immediately suspended.
The last five lines of my post address your question based on my experiences. Feel free to PM me if you have follow-up questions or need more information.
@finger laker: Fights happen on university property on a regular basis
No - no they don't.
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Originally Posted by joe from dayton
There is not any liabilty issue for the university unless a court finds them negligent in some manner.
If an assault takes place in a building then it's pretty easy for that liability to come back to them - this particular one did. Now there weren't any physical damages and I think it would be a hard stretch to find any damages at all, but the universities response to such actions is very important in setting up their defense for all cases.
In general colleges/universities are deemed to have an arms length relationship with their adult students - however, they still have a duty for their safety on their premises .... this becomes much more stringent in areas where there would be expected security and control on conduct, such as academic buildings, dorms, university sponsored events, etc.
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Originally Posted by joe from dayton
If you are walking down the street of your hometown and you get punched, do you think you are going to sue the city? Likewise with a college.
My city is a public entity - if they created the situation that led to my assault one they could be culpable .... however, it's a pretty poor comparison to a private establishment ...... a better comparison would be if I was assaulted in my towns court house or more realistically at the local grocery
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Originally Posted by joe from dayton
The college does not make a promise to protect and courts have ruled time and again that there is no duty to protect.
Many colleges do make that promise - it may be limited in scope, but many have policies & procedures i place that define what can and cannot happen on their premises with a security team and protocol in place for enforcing this conduct .... hazing is probably the example that hits the courts most often, there is obviously going to be some blur, but by and large if the hazing was off campus in a privately owned home the university is going to skate responsibility, on campus with a disclaimer that the housing is authorized, but not secured will usually get them released, on campus and university owned under a university policy that prohibits hazing then liability starts to attach
When you start to have policies on an action, police action and provide consequences for an action and then someone is injured by that action on property under your control then there is more often then not going to be liability
You can't say you are not responsible when every action you take shows that you are responsible
We don't know enough about this university or their procedures .... but by and large an assault that takes place against a student in their building isn't something they are going to take lightly and very well could fall under their liability
For example here is a policy from a random university on weekend use of one of their buildings:
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Weekend community building
Concentrating academic and non-academic activities on the weekend in buildings in the quadrangle (quad) area meets student and faculty needs for convenient location and access and allows close monitoring of activity by the Dept. of Public Safety (DPS).
If one of the reasons they guide you to an area is so you can be closely monitored by their DPS, they open themselves up to associated liability as they are providing for your safety in that location and specifically want you in that location for safety reasons
So while many do get thrown out - many also get paid ..... speak with someone who handles University insurance programs and it may just blow your mind on what does and doesn't work through
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