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The economy was in the crapper when I graduated three years ago. I have a bachelor's in economics, which I thought would be at least a decent degree, considering I had just moved over from political science and sociology. I ended up getting a job in IT right out of school (though at $29k with a 100 mile commute), got a better job (in IA @ $45k w/ 8% state income tax, not TN), then moved back to TN (making $34k, 9 mile commute, no income tax, living with family) this winter. Out of my immediate circle of friends, and excluding those not working in government or health care, I'm probably doing the best since I've remained consistently employed and have been able to increase my salary and shorten my commute. I am working on a W-2 contract with no PTO (though I do get paid holidays), have very poor health insurance, and the client company is of very questionable financial health. My situation isn't the best, but many of the people I grew up with are far worse off. Many are still working retail/restaurants in their mid-late 20s, are unemployed, or have criminal convictions.
In hindsight, I wasn't as active as I should have been in high school and college in laying the groundwork for a secure financial future. Maybe I should have majored in a health care or education related field. Maybe I should have looked for more internships. Maybe this or maybe that. What's sad is that almost every young person I know is struggling except the medical and government workers. I can't point to anything that I can say with high probability would have improved my situation. When you don't know what you could have done differently to improve things, that's scary.
If someone comes out of college with a British literature degree and ends up unemployed, that's a legitimate "told you so." However, when new accountants, finance majors, computer scientists, etc, are out of work or out of field, those indicate structural economic problems. Society is doing very little to address these problems so far.
See the thing is the one who comes out with british lit degree, the anthropolgy degree, the sociology, the history degree etc... proably did not count on unemployment. They where brought up since highschool to "study what you love and the money will come", did not matter if you loved was accounting, or nursing or English lit or Journalism-all four should, in theory should lead to a good job. There was never any conversation "You can major in whatever you want but if you want a good job then you should limit your choices to a,b,c,d,e and pick one of those". I am also guessing that the history majors, the british lit majors also proably had a conversation with the academic advisor somewhere along the lines of:
"I really love History but I am worried about finding a job and I know I don't want to teach, what should I do?"
To which the academic advisor proably responded with some canned:
"Oh don't worry companies love to hire history majors (insert random LA degree) because they have excellent communication skills and are vital critcal thinkers etc...:
So the history grad walks away reassured... until he hits his first job fair and realizes, actually no the employer prefers to hire someone with a niche major, someone that is more specilazed (finance, computer science etc...) rather than the history, journalism major etc....-Oh hot dam I just lived my life based on a lie...
So what some college grads are finding are:
1) You will proably not, at least right away, work in the field of your choice
2) Landing a paid internship is just as hard as a regular job
3) Entry level positions are rarley ever entry level, often requring 2-3 years of expereince doing x...
4) The prevelance of the ever popular "I cant get hired because I don't have expereince but how can i get expereince if i can't get hired in the first place"-that wonderful bit of circular reasoning is a real ball buster
5) Even the minimum wage jobs, retail work is not guarnteed
6) Personal connections, any type of past work/internship expereince will likely get you the job more than a degree ever could
And to clear something up to the parents:
1) No we are not happy to be living at home, believe me we want more out of the house than you want us out
2) No we are not turning down work, looking for the perfect job. First off there are no jobs to turn down and in this economy I would not be turning down jobs in the first place
3) The whole "walk into a business, dressed up nice and resume in hand, talk to a manager etc...", yea maybe that worked with Fred flinstone but i guarntee you- 9 times out of 10 you are quickly told- "Go apply online, everything is online"
I'd like to know if the graduates who can't find jobs worked anywhere doing anything while they were in high school or college.
Good point. My daughter worked in high school, then quit when she went to college. She studied abroad and did some work while in Asia on an as-needed basis--tutoring, modeling, hostessing. Then she came home, and in the summer before her senior year, she got a part-time job, just 20 hours a week.
She graduated last weekend. She's going to work on a research project at the college through the summer and fall--more or less an unpaid internship, 10 hours a week. She asked her manager for more hours, so she'll be working full time because there was an opening. Not great pay, and the job has nothing to do with either of the two degrees she just earned, but it will be enough to pay her rent and utilities and food in a shared third-floor apartment. I wonder how hard it would have been to find anything full-time if she wasn't working there in the first place.
Maybe its time these high school counselors leveled with these kids and admitted that a college degree will be a waste of time and money for most of them today.
It's not the fault of the HS counselors that state legislatures continue to undermine higher education by cutting back ever more on funding, nor is it their fault that parents expect their kids to go to college.
A college degree is not just for getting one job. A college graduate usually has a work life that lasts over 40 years. As you can see, college graduates fare better in job markets over their entire careers. I would hesitate to tell a young person that college is not worth it simply because it might be more difficult to find his first job than it had been 30 years ago.
Let's look at this in detail.
There are now jobs that previously did not require a college degree that now require a college degree. While the degree might not be necessary to do the job the job is going to a college graduate. That means the job is NOT going to a high school graduate. So the jobs that were previously going to HS graduates are now going to college graduates, making the even less attractive jobs available to HS graduates. I think I would rather be a college graduate. Additionally, college graduates are in position to receive promotions more quickly than HS graduates.
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I think you're partly accurate, especially when you state a degree is not for just "one job." It is for all jobs the person holds after graduation.
However, I think the second part requires some expansion. While a company may desire a degree for entry level or paraprofessional positions that would formerly have been filled by high school graduates, equivalent experience is usually an adequate substitute. Some places do have strict policies for disqualification if there is no degree, but many jobs are flexible on this.
The promotion statement assumes one is on a career-track position or that the first position can lead to subsequent, more senior positions. Many jobs that would have once been "stepping stones" into better positions are now dead-end.
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Originally Posted by Tinawina
You have to be flexible in your approach to looking. Approach a company you're interested in even if they don't have an internship posted, be willing to work for free if you can (or be willing to work at the pizza shop on the side), design your own project you can do for a non profit perhaps, put together some extended shadowing experiences, get yourself a consulting job, write a grant for someone, spend the summer in a lab or doing a research project, go overseas... the thing is, what you need is experience outside the classroom, it doesn't really matter how you get it. It's okay to make your own.
Of course people should be flexible, but the labor market right now is structured in a severely inflexible way. "Designing your own project" can work in some fields, but some fields do not lend themselves to that. I'm in an IT support position. Simply getting licenses for much of the software we use at my company would run into the tens of thousands of dollars, minimum. I'd also need a lab full of PCs or virtual machines to simulate the corporate environment. The only way I can gain experience or train on the software is if I'm already employed and likely have experience in the field. In short, it is not feasible for me to "design my own project" when the initial capital investment is so high.
Getting a consulting job or job shadowing likely means you have either experience or a foot already in the door, both of which are a bit beyond the scope of this thread.
Also, you can't just "make your own" experience in most cases. Many employers want "X" years with "Y" skill and "Z" tool and this experience usually must be in a corporate setting. Also, even if you do self-study to the point of expertise, most established companies will not hire someone without some experience or credential for an FTE position, so people take whatever they can get and then move forward. That's the path most people will take.
A few do break the mold and create their own opportunity. An old friend of mine is in his mid 20s, runs his own software development firm, and his start was working pro bono to build a client base. However, his business requires little overhead, the client risked nothing because he was doing the work for free, and he was not an employee, so there were no training costs, ramp-up time, etc, by having him consult. He had to work a regular job until he had a large enough network and the business became profitable. Less than four years later, he is a multimillionaire, and his companies are on track to have nine figure revenue in less than six years in business. He never completed college nor was he born into wealth. He does work harder and more hours than I've ever seen anyone put in. He's also an extreme outlier and few people will end up this successful no matter how brilliant they are or how much effort they put in.
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Originally Posted by mkpunk
I bolded the most important point. We have a structural economic problem in this country that it looks like no one is trying to fix. This even goes to D.C. Forget it being just Republicans, Democrats also voted down Obama's jobs bill.
Governments at all levels do not seem to be making jobs a priority or are going down the wrong roads in the search for job creation. For example, three city governments in my metro of ~500k have collectively spent at least $65 million on a YMCA facility, a Cabela's, and a Bass Pro Shop. These places are NOT going to generate much in the way of employment and what they do generate is mostly low value customer service work.
One factor that I don't see given nearly the significance that it has is the candidate's location. I went to a school in a town of about ~65k, not small, but not huge. The area's economy is dominated by local government and health care workers. The school has a terrific college of education and college of nursing and also has good graduate programs in those fields. The school is well-connected to the employers in those fields in this area and placement rates are very high. Many other industries are not represented significantly in this area, and even though the school offers degrees in many other fields (and some of the programs are quite good), the local economy lacks credible employers in fields like IT and accounting, leaving graduates of those programs out of field, out of work, or forced to relocate.
In the past, one might be able to go to a "country school" and move to the "city" for work, but many areas already have enough qualified local candidates to fill available vacancies.
Of course people should be flexible, but the labor market right now is structured in a severely inflexible way. "Designing your own project" can work in some fields, but some fields do not lend themselves to that. I'm in an IT support position. Simply getting licenses for much of the software we use at my company would run into the tens of thousands of dollars, minimum. I'd also need a lab full of PCs or virtual machines to simulate the corporate environment. The only way I can gain experience or train on the software is if I'm already employed and likely have experience in the field. In short, it is not feasible for me to "design my own project" when the initial capital investment is so high.
Getting a consulting job or job shadowing likely means you have either experience or a foot already in the door, both of which are a bit beyond the scope of this thread.
Also, you can't just "make your own" experience in most cases. Many employers want "X" years with "Y" skill and "Z" tool and this experience usually must be in a corporate setting. Also, even if you do self-study to the point of expertise, most established companies will not hire someone without some experience or credential for an FTE position, so people take whatever they can get and then move forward. That's the path most people will take.
Of course every situation is different. I'm talking about getting INTERNSHIP LEVEL experience. I have seen students do this outside of applying for formal internship programs. You can even get a student job at your college that will give you are real project to work on. The development office, alumni offices, career services, admissions and the marketing offices are usually ripe with opportunities for students.
You do not need experience to job shadow. You need a careers office and/or alumni database (or a professional org membership, or a friend of a parent, etc) and an email address and phone to contact people. And by "consulting" I mean "doing a side project for someone" over the summer. Build a website. Put together a program at a community center. Make a marketing plan for a small business or a fundraising plan for a non profit. Search Idealist.org for opportunities. Do you know that lots of accounting/finance majors can find things like volunteer banks for the poor where they can gain useful experience? or free tax preparation programs that need volunteers?
I am talking about college students not graduating without having done something outside the classroom that seems useful. You don't have to stick to doing an internet search and applying to programs in the usual corporations to gain that experience.
People are not expecting an IT major to graduate with 30 certifications anyway. But if they actually built a useful database for someone, or set up a network for a new nonprofit, that can go on a resume and look good.
A college degree is not just for getting one job. A college graduate usually has a work life that lasts over 40 years. As you can see, college graduates fare better in job markets over their entire careers. I would hesitate to tell a young person that college is not worth it simply because it might be more difficult to find his first job than it had been 30 years ago.
Let's look at this in detail.
There are now jobs that previously did not require a college degree that now require a college degree. While the degree might not be necessary to do the job the job is going to a college graduate. That means the job is NOT going to a high school graduate. So the jobs that were previously going to HS graduates are now going to college graduates, making the even less attractive jobs available to HS graduates. I think I would rather be a college graduate. Additionally, college graduates are in position to receive promotions more quickly than HS graduates.
I think the issue is this the cost of college is perhaps a little too high for the benefit. Think about it 26K in average student loan debt right out of college with jobs that can only get you at best 40K if you can get the right job though most end up in the same jobs they would have had without a degree. A job they now have to pay back on the student loans. Now you can see why many people think a degree is no longer worth it.
Now let's stop and think about the "jobs that previously did not require a college degree that now require a college degree" notion. This is a relatively recent development. This is one that we have seen only in the last four/five years which have been the post-recession period of "recovery." With that, you have to wonder did the job change because of the employer's market where there is a large supply of workers looking for work and if so, could it go back when employees had the market because there were more demand than there were jobs. I mean when we get out of this and actually start employing people again and this idea sticks, I agree with you. If it doesn't then maybe it isn't as needed to get a college degree.
Think of it this way, I am not sure if you heard of these "unemployed need not apply" job postings. I am fairly certain this is more of a measuring stick requirement to limit how many applications come in to a company. Understandable, a hiring manager can only look through X resumes, give Y interviews for Z jobs. To me right now, the jobs that do not directly requiring a degree that require a degree are in that same territory. Like for instance, cell phone retail sales does not really a degree unless it is say a business degree.
Quote:
Over the course of a lifetime college graduates earn more:
"In 2012, the typical full-time worker with a bachelor’s degree earned 79 percent more than a similar full-time worker with no more than a high school diploma. For comparison, 20 years earlier the premium was 73 percent, and 30 years earlier it was 48 percent."
So while the earnings of college graduates has gone down, along with the earnings of HS graduates they still make more over time and the gap is growing. I would counsel any student who can succeed to go to college.
I want to see the new life-time earnings where most if not all of my graduating class went directly into college. I agree that there is still a premium but now it seems like the juice of the degree is worth the squeeze when you consider the lack of jobs available to the graduates.
Thanks J Coop, I know engineering is hard, and believe me I am one proud mama, to me just having him get the degree is quite the accomplishment, but I also have been doing alot of reading, and I know that even alot of engineering students are having a hard time in this economy. I am resting alot easier knowing that he has this internship, thanks to an amazing person that has pushed on his behalf, but that is a total other story,lol
I wouldn't be too worried about your son. Computer Engineering is a pretty versatile degree and can go into either software or hardware. A lot of companies are hiring. While GPA matters a lot, it is something you can work around. Also "low" is relative. Some people think 3.0 is low. I graduated from a top 10 Computer Science program 3 years ago with a 2.6GPA and recently broke 6 figures (albeit with new job in NYC). Spend time working on interview skills and really work on that resume and your son will do fine.
When I went to school, "home economics" was learning to cook, sew and do laundry. Nothing about math besides recipe measurements.
A modern home economics class teaches not only the basics you listed but also how to effectively manage money and cut the cost of running a home. I think schools should have kids read Dave Ramsey books about managing money and avoiding debt as well. If the fate of most of the kids is to earn 10 dollars an hour for their work lives then they should know how to best manage that meager wage. This will help them far more than college which will only bring a huge student debt payment, which will have to be paid while earning that 10 dollar an hour wage. I think a previous poster referred to my original post as a "pity party" but my assessment of the modern economy is accurate. It does no one any good to live in a Polyanna fantasy world, so maybe its time to accept the reality that has been dealt to the current generation. It also would do us some good as a society to attempt to reverse the trend of "offshoring", a nation that does not build anything will never be prosperous.
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