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I know an awful lot of very smart capable people that went to Ivies, while I only know a handful of dull or lazy people that went there. All of my former students that have gone on to Ivy League med and graduate schools have been top notch.
When I worked at a government lab, I worked with a bunch of Ivy League interns. Most were great, some were good, a few were worthless, at least as far as research productivity goes. On average, the students were generally much better than the local students from the university of Tennessee, but the top students at UT were comparable to the top Ivy students. My rough estimation would be that the 90th percentile at UT was comparable to the 50th percentile or so at the Ivies. Of course these were junior and senior level science majors, so the percentages might be more skewed for the general student body.
One thing I noticed about the Ivy League kids, though, was that they were not intimidated by anyone's reputation or title, and they would often try (often successfully) to make appointments with some top scientists to talk about advising and careers. I assume that they were instructed to do this by their professors, and I guess you could call that some great advising.
On average, the students were generally much better than the local students from the university of Tennessee, but the top students at UT were comparable to the top Ivy students. My rough estimation would be that the 90th percentile at UT was comparable to the 50th percentile or so at the Ivies. Of course these were junior and senior level science majors, so the percentages might be more skewed for the general student body.
I think that you are right. The top students at Large State U are often as good as the top students anywhere, including the best Ivy, Cal Tech, MIT, whatever. The differences become increasingly apparent further down the class ranks, and the differences toward the bottom can be very large indeed. FWIW, that has been my experience . . .
I think the top students at pretty much any school are on par with any "Ivy" kid.....there are only so many Ivy slots and frankly, a lot kids just don't buy into the Ivy thing and don't even bother to apply there one reason or another....
I know an awful lot of very smart capable people that went to Ivies, while I only know a handful of dull or lazy people that went there. All of my former students that have gone on to Ivy League med and graduate schools have been top notch.
When I worked at a government lab, I worked with a bunch of Ivy League interns. Most were great, some were good, a few were worthless, at least as far as research productivity goes. On average, the students were generally much better than the local students from the university of Tennessee, but the top students at UT were comparable to the top Ivy students. My rough estimation would be that the 90th percentile at UT was comparable to the 50th percentile or so at the Ivies. Of course these were junior and senior level science majors, so the percentages might be more skewed for the general student body.
One thing I noticed about the Ivy League kids, though, was that they were not intimidated by anyone's reputation or title, and they would often try (often successfully) to make appointments with some top scientists to talk about advising and careers. I assume that they were instructed to do this by their parents, and I guess you could call that some great advising.
Fixed that for you.
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I think the top students at pretty much any school are on par with any "Ivy" kid.....there are only so many Ivy slots and frankly, a lot kids just don't buy into the Ivy thing and don't even bother to apply there one reason or another....
I would revise this to: "the top students at pretty much any good school are on par with any top tier undergrad." Most students who are in the ballpark do apply to at least some elite (read: extremely competitive admissions & top-notch reputation) schools. I'd bet that 95% of any high school's AP Calculus classes applied to at least one school that is arguably elite. Granted, there are some really bright students who don't reach AP Calc (and there are schools that do not offer it), but it is a pretty reasonable proxy for top high school students, I think (I imagine the same is true for the top 10% of SAT/AP score earners).
Of course, elite schools reach well beyond the Ivy League. One would have to add, at least:
Stanford
Cal Tech
MIT
The Service Academies
U Chicago
Tufts
Was. U. in St. Louis
Bowdoin
Olin
Swarthmore
Claremont McKenna
Pomona
Amherst
Wellesley
Smith
Mt. Holyoke
Harvey Mudd
Scripps
Bryn Mawr
Barnard
Carleton
Grinnell
Haverford
Wesleyan
Reed
Oberlin
Vassar
Williams
And probably some others I am leaving out.
There would certainly be another tier of arguably elite schools, as well. I think it's fair to say that these schools' student bodies are top-notch. But I would freely admit that the top students at good schools are in the same tier of intellect + work ethic.
If you want to measure the success of particular schools based on the level of earning power they provide their students, this is an interesting chart: The Cheapest, Best Colleges
Notice that the top 3 schools in terms of value (all in the high earning bracket) are all first tier public research universities. They are not Ivy league and are not nearly as competitive either.
Interesting link, but it used only out of state tuition. That would make a school like Georgia Tech an even better value for someone paying in state tuition, especially in GA where good students going to state schools can get free tuition due to the lottery funded Hope Scholarship.
Also, top tier students can participate in Honors Programs. Therefore, at a state school with such a program you will find students every bit as capable as those at the Ivies. The availability of the scholarship is a strong incentive for capapble to stay in state and has resulted in the bar for admission being raised significantly.
Here are the stats for the University of Georgia for this year's freshmen in the Honors Program:
"With all of the programming opportunities we provide, it is no surprise that our students are competitive with the very best students in the nation for coveted slots in highly selective graduate and professional schools, as well as exciting careers. Clear evidence of this is the great success our students have enjoyed in the past decade in external major scholarship competitions such as the Rhodes, Marshall, Mitchell, Gates Cambridge, Truman, Goldwater, Udall, Fulbright, and Merage fellowships. Over the past decade, UGA Honors students have won more than 50 such awards. In 2003, UGA was joined only by Brown, Harvard, and Yale in having recipients of the Rhodes, Marshall, Truman, and Goldwater scholarships that year. In 2008, only Columbia, Stanford, Yale, and UGA had recipients of the Rhodes, Truman, Goldwater, and Udall scholarships. That same year, UGA was the only public institution in the country with more than one Rhodes Scholar, with two."
Having spotlighted my alma mater and admitting my bias, I suspect the same can be said for many state universities.
For those who have not clicked on the above links (especially Georgia Tech), you may change your mind after comparing the two. But Berkeley is far more selective ( see Berkeley - GPA and Test Scores Needed for Admission ) Also, there are going to be programs at Berkeley that will be far more selective than the averages. The blue dots mean they are accepted but declined. It seems Berkeley is a back up plan for a lot of people. Not too many people turn down Georgia Tech. UofWI is also more selective that Georgia Tech. http://collegeapps.about.com/od/GPA-...pa-sat-act.htm
I would revise this to: "the top students at pretty much any good school are on par with any top tier undergrad." Most students who are in the ballpark do apply to at least some elite (read: extremely competitive admissions & top-notch reputation) schools. I'd bet that 95% of any high school's AP Calculus classes applied to at least one school that is arguably elite. Granted, there are some really bright students who don't reach AP Calc (and there are schools that do not offer it), but it is a pretty reasonable proxy for top high school students, I think (I imagine the same is true for the top 10% of SAT/AP score earners).
Of course, elite schools reach well beyond the Ivy League. One would have to add, at least:
Stanford
Cal Tech
MIT
The Service Academies
U Chicago
Tufts
Was. U. in St. Louis
Bowdoin
Olin
Swarthmore
Claremont McKenna
Pomona
Amherst
Wellesley
Smith
Mt. Holyoke
Harvey Mudd
Scripps
Bryn Mawr
Barnard
Carleton
Grinnell
Haverford
Wesleyan
Reed
Oberlin
Vassar
Williams
And probably some others I am leaving out.
There would certainly be another tier of arguably elite schools, as well. I think it's fair to say that these schools' student bodies are top-notch. But I would freely admit that the top students at good schools are in the same tier of intellect + work ethic.
I agree with this. I think most of the top 5-10% of students get distributed among the 30-40 "highly selective" schools around the country, while a huge chunk of the rest end up in honors programs in schools that are quite good though not "elite". So while Ivies have a high concentration of the smartest and most driven kids, those same types of kids can also be found elsewhere, though they may not make up the majority of the student body outside the most selective/prestigious types of schools.
There was a study a while back that said the best students tend to end up the same no matter what college they go to (within reason, outcomes drop if good students end up in outright mediocre schools), so one could argue that the real fight is to graduate near the top of your high school class (since that is indicative of the combination of smarts and drive you will need to succeed in life), not so much where you attend college.
That's Georgia State, not GA Tech. GA Tech, as you know, is much more prestigious.
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