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Old 04-20-2014, 02:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USMCPOG View Post
Its probably better to say an LL.M is the equivalent to a Ph.D. But to say a law degree is merely a "second bachelors degree" is crazy.
The SJD (Doctor of Juridical Science) is the equivalent of the Ph.D. in law.
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Old 04-20-2014, 02:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dba07 View Post
Correct an MFA is considered a terminal degree whilst not being a doctorate. For accreditation purposes it is theoretically equivilent to doctorates, though your point is noted.
A JD on the other hand is considered a terminal degree and it is considered functionally equivalent to the PhD in terms of hiring, tenure and promotion in every program.

I would say it depends on how you determine what par is. Law school is difficult, and the bar can be very tough in some states, but it different from those of us who had to do the dissertation thing. That is a different kind of hell I suppose.
One thing is for sure though, the employment flexibility of a JD degree blows that of a Ph.D out of the water. A Ph.D is basically confining him or herself to one specific area for the rest of their lives if they choose to undertake that degree. A lawyer on the otherhand, has a lot of flexibility in what they can do. A lawyer can pretty much fit into any upper level federal, state, or local government job, go into business, become a CEO of a large company, do any type of law enforcement job or intelligence job (FBI, CIA, NSA, ATF, DEA, etc.), etc. And this is all in addition to being able to practice law within any state if they choose to retake the bar for that state. This is not to say that a Ph.D couldn't do the same, but the first question an employer would have is to ask why they are abandoning a high paying field for another? Couldn't hack it or got laid off, what?

Ask yourself this. How many US presidents have had law degrees vs. Ph.Ds? The only Ph.D I can think of was Woodrow Wilson. Law degrees I could go on forever.



Quote:
Originally Posted by King of Kensington View Post
The SJD (Doctor of Juridical Science) is the equivalent of the Ph.D. in law.
I had never heard of a SJD before, only an LL.M. They are probably close to the samething.
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Old 04-20-2014, 02:40 PM
 
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“S.J.D.? What’s THAT?” - a brief history of an overlooked, mysterious*degree - Features - Georgetown Law Weekly
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Old 04-20-2014, 02:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpk-nyc View Post
There is also an S.J.D., which is closer to a real doctorate, but few people have one.

This. That was the first thing I thought of too.

I tend to think of a doctorate as a "researcher" degree, meaning if you have one not only have you been trained how to conduct academic research, but you've completed such a project on your own and had it pass through a battery of gatekeepers to be declared worthy. Even if you've never published (which is fairly rare) you've done that much, so you are capable of conceiving and executing high level investigations.

A JD is similar to an MD to me. Prepared you to take a (very difficult) qualifying exam in order to practice a highly regulated, tightly licensed profession, one that only very intelligent folks can hack. But it's not a research degree.

SJD and an MD/PhD are both the research version of each to me.

It just seems like an odd bit of semantics to argue over. What is wrong with being a lawyer? Why try to change it to "doctor"? Is the level of prestige currently enjoyed not enough somehow? Weird.
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Old 04-20-2014, 03:20 PM
 
Location: Chesapeake Bay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USMCPOG View Post
Huh? Lawyers lay the groundwork for case law and precedent when it comes to the justice system. Yes, the judges ultimately rule on them, but it is the lawyers who argue for and win the cases or their filings. How is that not a contribution to their field?

Its probably better to say an LL.M is the equivalent to a Ph.D. But to say a law degree is merely a "second bachelors degree" is crazy.

BTW, there are just as many bad doctors out there as JDs. A lot of stuff in science, such as supplements for example, still don't have a lot of solid science behind them, so anything they say based on them is mostly down to their opinions. These guys are still human, lets not act like they aren't because they did more schooling than everyone else. That schooling is just there to "fool proof" them against making mistakes, but its not going to eliminate them from doing so completey.
In short, a few doctors and lawyers are quacks.
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Old 04-20-2014, 11:07 PM
 
Location: Striving for Avalon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USMCPOG View Post
One thing is for sure though, the employment flexibility of a JD degree blows that of a Ph.D out of the water. A Ph.D is basically confining him or herself to one specific area for the rest of their lives if they choose to undertake that degree.
I would argue that that statement reflects the labour market's flawed perceptions of PhD holders' skills. The ability to research a topic in detail, expound on it coherently for 80-100,000 words, and complete a multi-year self-directed project is nothing to sneeze at. Research skills can be transferred to other knowledge bodies, after all. A doctorate does not shut the door to other knowledge, contrary to popular belief.
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Old 04-21-2014, 01:27 AM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish Forbes View Post
One thing you learn in graduate school is not to take individual anecdotes too seriously . . .
You also learn not to dismiss them out of hand simply because they do not agree with your preconceived notion, especially if you have no first hand knowledge yourself.

And psst:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma_bear View Post
We have a lawyer in our office who has a PhD and a JD and she said the same thing.
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Old 04-21-2014, 01:44 AM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USMCPOG View Post
I had never heard of a SJD before, only an LL.M. They are probably close to the samething.
Officially the LLM is a masters of law, and it generally indicates a specialization in the law. The SJD is a Doctor of Juridical Science. (It's also called a JSD). It isn't very common, actually post law school degrees aren't all that common regardless. It takes about 3 or slightly more years to finish after law school. Fun fact - Taiwan's current president got one in the early 80's when they were really rare.
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Last edited by Oldhag1; 04-21-2014 at 01:57 AM..
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Old 04-21-2014, 01:55 AM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
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Originally Posted by Tinawina View Post

It just seems like an odd bit of semantics to argue over. What is wrong with being a lawyer? Why try to change it to "doctor"? Is the level of prestige currently enjoyed not enough somehow? Weird.
At least some of it has to do with teaching at a university level and, hold on to your hat, pay. One side says "It isn't fair they get paid more than we do, after all PhD's are more special and they take longer to get" and the other side says "Well, we have the word doctorate in our degree too, and we are smarter than you."
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Old 04-21-2014, 03:42 AM
 
2,885 posts, read 3,397,252 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
You also learn not to dismiss them out of hand simply because they do not agree with your preconceived notion, especially if you have no first hand knowledge yourself.
Just for the record, Dear Dr. Old Hag, I do have first-hand knowledge, I do! I have a PhD, and I have indeed managed lawyers in the Corporate World (which, by your logic regarding lawyers managing PhDs, qualifies me in both fields!).

Sincerely,

Dr. Forbes (but I would be honored if you would call me Hamish . . .)
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