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Old 04-19-2014, 05:52 AM
 
695 posts, read 695,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacific2 View Post
Actually 43% of all applicants are accepted and find seat in a medical school.
JHU Pre-Professional Advising

When tracked by application year, the average acceptance rate of applicants nationally over the past six years has been 43%, or less than one chance in two; whereas the average acceptance rate of applicants from Johns Hopkins over the past six years has been 68%, or two chances out of three. Acceptance rates look even better when we track by incoming cohort (instead of by medical school application year).
You misunderstood me, I meant nearly 1 in 10 applicants who apply with perfect grades still get rejected. Overall its far worse, as you pointed out, and many individual medical schools have acceptance rates below 5%.
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Old 04-19-2014, 06:01 AM
 
2,893 posts, read 3,409,259 times
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Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
He says you are right about the education requirements but other things go into the pay equation and that when everything is said and done a lawyer will make more money as a federal employee than most PhDs.
Has anyone, anywhere in this thread, said otherwise? The JD often is, or at least was, a ticket to make a lot of money. It is also a ticket to relative poverty for a lot of bottom-tier graduates with $150,000 in student loans and no job. But that's not the question here, is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
We have a friend who has both degrees and his take is that it is harder to get into law school and the actual classes are harder, however it is harder to graduate from a PhD program.
One thing you learn in graduate school is not to take individual anecdotes too seriously . . .
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Old 04-19-2014, 06:37 AM
 
Location: Aliso Viejo, Orange County, CA
4,747 posts, read 5,961,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexdiamondz1902 View Post
You misunderstood me, I meant nearly 1 in 10 applicants who apply with perfect grades still get rejected. Overall its far worse, as you pointed out, and many individual medical schools have acceptance rates below 5%.
I misread your post.
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Old 04-19-2014, 08:19 AM
 
11,616 posts, read 19,760,598 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeBeard View Post
IIRC a number of years ago a lawyer put DR in front of his name in legal advertisements in Florida. The Florida Bar was informed and commenced an investigation. The Bar or later the Florida Supreme Court, I can't remember which, determined that since a juris doctorate was a doctorate it was not misrepresentation for a lawyer to call himself a doctor. So it has been determined, a JD is a doctorate. It doesn't mean it is a Phd though.
When my husband goes to Europe many of his European colleagues address him as Dr. Lastname (until he tells them to call him by his first name) even though his highest degree is a JD.
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Old 04-19-2014, 08:22 AM
 
11,616 posts, read 19,760,598 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
We have a friend who has both degrees and his take is that it is harder to get into law school and the actual classes are harder, however it is harder to graduate from a PhD program.
We have a lawyer in our office who has a PhD and a JD and she said the same thing.
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:14 AM
 
340 posts, read 517,146 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King of Kensington View Post
What an ignorant statement. The term doctor comes from the Latin "docere" which means to teach and the term originally for scholars. It wasn't until the 18th century that physicians began to use the title. So it's the physicians who stole the term from the academics, not the other way around.
I stand corrected. However you didn't have to be such a jerk about it. If I understand the concept behind a forum it's to debate in a civil manner, learn from the debate and become more informed from it. I guess you don't appreciate that concept. But hey I learned something from it and will address those with PhD's accordingly as doctor.
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:45 AM
 
12,778 posts, read 12,150,774 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexdiamondz1902 View Post
You misunderstood me, I meant nearly 1 in 10 applicants who apply with perfect grades still get rejected. Overall its far worse, as you pointed out, and many individual medical schools have acceptance rates below 5%.
There are a combination of reasons, one of them being the number of seats available, not as so much people are not qualified. Like Harvard UG, there are only so many people they can let in, so many people who are more than qualified to attend Harvard do not get accepted.

And while yes, some medical schools have acceptance rates below 5%degree, so do many programs; prestigious programs most likely have low acceptance rates versus some third tier programs. Yale Law cannot be compared to some third tier law school.

Anyway, my comment was just a general reply; the poster stated PhD's are not what they use to be, I should have been more specific and stated JD's are not at all that difficult to come by, many law schools, especially the second and third tier, have basically 100% acceptance rates, and their course of instruction are rather easy, especially compared to the t-12 law schools. This is why people from t-12 and t-5 schools are heavily recruited and land those nice law jobs, versus someone with a JD from some third tier nothing law school.

As for medical school, so many people go overseas for the cost and admission, I wonder about the standards being adhered to; thank goodness the university where they got their MD is attached to them when researching about a doctor to find.
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:50 AM
 
12,778 posts, read 12,150,774 times
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Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
Incorrect. My husband had three papers published in peer-reviewed, archival journals while in law school. He has had many, many more published since, including ones not associated with the law. He has a couple of PhD's that work under him right now, they are currently doing analysis, research, and publication for the federal government.

I gave the page count to make the point that it wasn't some little term paper.
Put it this way; every PhD I have come across has published something at some point in time, however, I have yet to come across a lawyer that has, and I work in an office full of lawyers as well as having a few friends that are lawyers.
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Old 04-20-2014, 01:37 PM
 
2,253 posts, read 2,575,121 times
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"The reason that the MD and other degrees were listed [in the BLS Occupational Outlook Handbook] as lower than a doctorate in the questionnaire in terms of the level of education achieved is that these degrees do not meet the traditional definition of what is required to receive a 'doctorate' level degree. In particular, where they fall short is the requirement for the generation and defense of 'new' knowledge - generally in the form of an extensive research project, thesis and defense of the thesis.

The MD, JD and other similar degrees are classified as "first-professional" degrees. These degrees generally contain "master's degree level" coursework along with extensive "apprenticeship style" training of the trade in question (medicine, law, religion, etc.)...the "first-professional" degree was created in the US to identify those degrees that represented highly advanced training in a particular subject beyond what is normally required for a master's degree but falling short of what is normally required for a master's degree but falling short of what is required to be awarded a doctorate."

- Gerald Martin, Determining Economic Damages
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Old 04-20-2014, 03:05 PM
 
146 posts, read 183,612 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish Forbes View Post
Not really. Remember that just a generation ago the JD was called an LLB, a bachelor's level designation. In other words, it was thought to be a second bachelors degree rather than a PhD-equivalent. Even now, the OPM evaluates a JD as being equivalent to a masters degree in hiring for GS-9 positions.

A key difference is that the JD is not prerequisite based. For example: someone entering law school with a BA in English and someone entering law school with a BS in physics both graduate in 3 years. It is not possible for someone with a BA in English to get a PhD in physics in three years, and probably not possible at all for most even to enter a physics program. Another way to look at this is to ask whether all three years of a JD are really graduate-level education, given that anyone off the street (with an undergraduate degree) qualifies for the program.

A fundamental question concerns the student's contribution to knowledge -- it's not just a matter of completing certain course work. A student receiving a PhD has, at least in principle, made an unobvious contribution to human knowledge. This is quite a hurdle. There is no such requirement or presumption for those receiving JDs. This stage comes later, in post-JD law degrees.

Another fundamental difference is the time required, realistically. Hardly anyone actually completes a PhD in just three years. Often, it takes more like six, and often longer than that.

None of this is intended to be disrespectful of lawyers or JDs -- some lawyers, many lawyers, are absolutely brilliant, and certainly have the intellect needed for successful study at the PhD level. But the JD is clearly not the equivalent of the PhD despite anything that the ABA might imagine.
Huh? Lawyers lay the groundwork for case law and precedent when it comes to the justice system. Yes, the judges ultimately rule on them, but it is the lawyers who argue for and win the cases or their filings. How is that not a contribution to their field?

Its probably better to say an LL.M is the equivalent to a Ph.D. But to say a law degree is merely a "second bachelors degree" is crazy.

BTW, there are just as many bad doctors out there as JDs. A lot of stuff in science, such as supplements for example, still don't have a lot of solid science behind them, so anything they say based on them is mostly down to their opinions. These guys are still human, lets not act like they aren't because they did more schooling than everyone else. That schooling is just there to "fool proof" them against making mistakes, but its not going to eliminate them from doing so completey.
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