Tell me about graduate school (bachelors, masters degree, schools, best)

[Momma_bear]

Originally Posted by rational1

If he is at Case Western he has access to the best possible sources of information: (1) current graduate students and (2) faculty of a program in his field that grants graduate degrees.

There are no grad students in economics at Case Western as the university does not grant graduate degrees in his field.

Originally Posted by rational1

He should use these sources himself. To be honest, parents should probably listen but not try to manage the process.

He will speak with his professors on his own. I am interested in information for my own knowledge only. The beauty of CD is that I can get some information without having to interfere with my son's business.

Thank you for the information, especially about funding.

[jayrandom]

Originally Posted by Momma_bear

I know quite a bit about colleges and universities regarding undergraduate education. I know less about graduate school. My husband and I both have professional degrees and I know that the process is different from graduate school.

My son is entering his third year of undergrad and he is a senior by credits. He plans on graduating in 3 semesters (7 total) with a BA in Mathematics and Economics. He would like to pursue a PhD in Economics and I just don't know much about the process of identifying and funding the right program. He is at Case Western Reserve University and his GPA is pretty high.

I have always heard that academic graduate programs can be funded by the university. Are these programs subject to the same kind of needs based testing as undergraduate programs?

Can you apply directly to a PhD program or do you need to get a Masters first?

I have heard that you need to identify the foremost person in your chosen field of study and apply to that program. Is is customary to make contact with that person prior to applying?

I would appreciate any information you can give me.

My wife and I both were graduate students, she was in economics, so I feel qualified to answer this question. In general graduate students in the sciences and quantitative social sciences are supported in their study. TA or RA positions for some, fellowships for the better students (either through the school or external fellowships he has applied for). Don't think of graduate school as school as much as a low paying (but paying) job at a school. Classes take 1-2 years and te rest of the time is research toward a Ph.D.

If your son cannot find a program that will pay his tuition and a stipend he's probably not a good enough candidate and should consider doing something else. If he's going to get a Ph.D he should be sure he wants a Ph.D., as only a masters is of marginal use. Also, the program is far more important than it is as an undergraduate. Look at economics faculty and you'll see that their PhDs come from a small set of schools.

In general you apply to a department, not a professor or a university. If he knows exactly what he wants to do and can convince a particular faculty member, that will help, but just emailing a professor generally isn't enough--he would have to convince her that she should "hire" him. One great way to get his foot in the door is summer research, but it's likely too late for that.

Finally, and not to to be too confrontational, but this is all stuff your son should be asking. Parents should be involved in the undergraduate admission process and of course aware of their kid's plans, but this is his game now. Graduate school is for adults.

I'm guessing you're just interested in the process out of curiosity, which is why I'm happy to answer. If you find yourself offering this advice to him you should seriously consider that either

a) he doesn't need it or
b) he isn't ready for graduate school.

[marigolds6]

I learned all of this by having a series of talks with my professors when I was looking at grad school. I suggest your son do the same. They actually helped me find specific programs and professors to work with.

Some of these answers change with different majors, but in general:

You should not go to grad school at the school you graduate from.
You can apply directly to a PhD program for most schools. If not, the school will explicitly state that in their application instructions.
It is customary to make contact with people at the programs you are applying to. Even if that person ends up being your initial major advisory, it is extremely common to change major advisers. (I was in a program of 50 Masters and PhD students, and all but 2 of us changed major advisers.) Major advisers is basically the main person you work and do research with. They often fund you through their grants, and head up your committee.
During the application process, someone selects you and volunteers to be your initial major adviser. If no one does this, it will be much harder to get in, maybe impossible in some departments. If a professor steps up immediately to be your initial major adviser, it will be much easier to get in. This is why contacting professors is important.
GREs matter for admission. Departments like to have high GRE scorers in their program for reputation. More importantly, high GREs are important for institution wide fellowships. After that, they do not matter at all.
GPA should already be 3.0+. Pretty much everyone going into grad school seeking funding has a high GPA. It does not differentiate people much. But CWRU is a very good school, so that will help differentiate.

Funding. The first two types of funding are teaching assistantships and research assistantships. These are jobs. They are normally funded out of the grants won by professors. They have fixed rates of pay at most schools and there is no need based test to their amount. RAs tend to have more hours, and hence pay more, than TAs. Some schools do not have fixed rates; in those cases, the TA/RA positions are more competitive and the rate of pay can be based on the quality of the student or the funding level of the department. The third main type of funding is fellowships. These are commonly only available to PhD students (but sometimes rarely available to masters students). Unlike an RA, in a fellowship the student sets their research direction and the funding is not tied to a specific professor. This means the student can jump start their own research, a very valuable perk. Fellowships have no set funding levels. They may be small token amounts, or they can be much larger than TA/RA funding. I was offered a University of California institutional fellowship, and the stipend alone was nearly $40k/yr with a total value around $80k/year, and there was a $50k stipend Hertz fellowship available too for my subsequent years.

Schools compete for good students. If the offer from one school is not good enough compared to other offers, the school might change it to stay competitive (but this is rare). You can win new fellowships in subsequent years. Pay attention to the funding schedule in the offer letter. Sometimes the first year is a TA and the second or third year is an RA or fellowship. It is common to require one year TA/RA per one year fellowship (and generally you are better off choosing RA if you have a choice because it means more focus on research and more pay).
TA and RA positions almost always include tuition remission. Many schools this is full tuition, but I have seen as low as only 25% tuition remission. Keep this in mind when comparing offers. A fellowship might not include tuition remission, particularly an external fellowship like the Hertz Fellowship; but it should have a tuition portion and stipend portion, the stipend portion is the "pay" above and beyond tuition.

If you still do not cover the full cost of education through funding, there are some need-tested programs. The student is considered independent now because they are a grad student. Most common program (at public schools) is automatic in-state tuition for out of state students. Next come loans. After that you might get full tuition remission. Realistically, if you have full funding offers then a school better be completely amazing to take an offer that is not full funding. Since grad school is a big part your own merits, high performance while fully funded at an average school will probably be better than mediocre performance paying your own way at a top school. Current professors at CWRU could help a lot, though, in comparing programs and offers.

[cheddar]

The econ faculty at his university can provide the best information on which grad programs to target given your son's GRE scores, math background, and GPA.

Top programs such as Princeton, etc., fund all of their students. Typically students recommended for top programs would have GREs in the mid 90 percentiles and have advanced math beyond the standard three semesters of calculus. Many students take Real Analysis in addition to calculus. They would need really strong letters of recommendation from faculty who could speak to the student's research abilities.

Some top 10-15 programs such as UW Madison and U of Michigan accept many students without aid the first year and tell the students that if they pass the end of the year comprehensive exams, then they are likely to get financial support as graduate assistants in subsequent years. Many students go there without aid.

Other good programs such as Ohio State, North Carolina, Michigan State, Virginia etc, might fund students who are not given funding by the above schools. But still you would expect to see students having GRE scores in the mid to top 80 percentiles at least.

Typically a student would choose a program based on their strength of their faculty in a certain area, like international trade or labor economics. Hopefully there will be multiple good faculty in that area because stars are mobile and you wouldn't want to choose a program based on one professor. You don't need to contact a faculty member directly in a grad program, although in other fields especially science that kind of faculty contact happens more often. After the student has a couple of acceptances, campus visits are useful and then individual meetings with faculty could be arranged.

Once your son has identified his interests in a particular field of economics, he can talk to his current professors about schools they recommend given his GRE scores, GPA, and math background and their past experience with student placement.

[Momma_bear]

Originally Posted by jayrandom

If your son cannot find a program that will pay his tuition and a stipend he's probably not a good enough candidate and should consider doing something else. If he's going to get a Ph.D he should be sure he wants a Ph.D., as only a masters is of marginal use. Also, the program is far more important than it is as an undergraduate. Look at economics faculty and you'll see that their PhDs come from a small set of schools.

This summer he is working at a large regional bank. One of the reasons he wants to get a PhD is that he says that you need one for all of the good jobs in banking. He can always get an MBA if he feels he needs another degree.

What are students judged on when schools consider whether they are good enough? Is it strictly grades in his economics classes? Since he is a math major also will they look at his grades in his math classes as well? He has a 4.0 in his economics classes but he got one B and one C in his math classes (the rest are As). Is one C enough to disqualify him from PhD programs?

Originally Posted by jayrandom

In general you apply to a department, not a professor or a university. If he knows exactly what he wants to do and can convince a particular faculty member, that will help, but just emailing a professor generally isn't enough--he would have to convince her that she should "hire" him. One great way to get his foot in the door is summer research, but it's likely too late for that.

How do you get a professor at another university to hire you for summer research? He could do that next summer. He will be doing work this upcoming school year with the professors at his school. I assume that they know people at other universities since they do (as you note) all come from a small set of schools.

Originally Posted by jayrandom

Finally, and not to to be too confrontational, but this is all stuff your son should be asking. Parents should be involved in the undergraduate admission process and of course aware of their kid's plans, but this is his game now. Graduate school is for adults.

Asking questions is not being involved. These are questions asked on an internet forum, specifically so that I can get information without being involved.

Originally Posted by jayrandom

I'm guessing you're just interested in the process out of curiosity, which is why I'm happy to answer. If you find yourself offering this advice to him you should seriously consider that either

a) he doesn't need it or
b) he isn't ready for graduate school.

I am just interested out of curiosity. My husband and I both have advanced degrees but they are professional degrees (MBA, MIS, Law) so we have no idea about the academically oriented graduate school programs. He was so enthusiastic when he called us with the news that this was the path he wanted to take that I was energized and wanted more information.

[Momma_bear]

Originally Posted by marigolds6

I learned all of this by having a series of talks with my professors when I was looking at grad school. I suggest your son do the same. They actually helped me find specific programs and professors to work with.

I am sure he will talk with his professors. I am on my own fact finding mission strictly out of curiosity.

Originally Posted by marigolds6

It is customary to make contact with people at the programs you are applying to.

Can I assume that the best way to be introduced to someone is through his current UG professors?

Originally Posted by marigolds6

GREs matter for admission. Departments like to have high GRE scorers in their program for reputation. More importantly, high GREs are important for institution wide fellowships. After that, they do not matter at all.

Can students self study for GREs or do they need a prep class? My son is a good independent student. I assume he can just get a book and self study for the exam.

Originally Posted by marigolds6

GPA should already be 3.0+. Pretty much everyone going into grad school seeking funding has a high GPA. It does not differentiate people much. But CWRU is a very good school, so that will help differentiate.

Does one bad grade on a transcript hurt? He got a C in one high level math class but the rest of his grades are excellent.

Originally Posted by marigolds6

If you still do not cover the full cost of education through funding, there are some need-tested programs. The student is considered independent now because they are a grad student.

I edited your comment to make my response shorter. Thank you for the valuable information! This is one thing that I wanted to know. We are high earners and I would hate to have him not be able to attend school because we made too much money. When he gets back to school in the fall he will talk to his professors. He is well regarded by his professors at CWRU and they have encouraged him to participate in their research.

[L210]

I didn't study at all for the GRE, and I got into a funded, non-quantitative, semi-social science (criminal justice) program. Actually, funding in non-quantitative, social science programs is quite common just to counter what someone else said. Some students can self-study for the GRE while others need more help.

[rational1]

> What are students judged on when schools consider whether they are good enough?

I am speaking in general about graduate admissions.

Important factors are: grades, GRE or other standardized tests, research or work experience, and letters of recommendation. Relative importance given to these factors varies among institutions, departments, and maybe even subfield.

The best letters of recommendation are very well informed letters about academic and research experience.

[cheddar]

Originally Posted by marigolds6

GREs matter for admission. Departments like to have high GRE scorers in their program for reputation. More importantly, high GREs are important for institution wide fellowships. After that, they do not matter at all.

Studies show that the GRE predicts success in first year PhD classes in economics.

Yes, OP, you can study for it by yourself without spending money on test-prep.

[jayrandom]

Originally Posted by Momma_bear

This summer he is working at a large regional bank. One of the reasons he wants to get a PhD is that he says that you need one for all of the good jobs in banking. He can always get an MBA if he feels he needs another degree.

What are students judged on when schools consider whether they are good enough? Is it strictly grades in his economics classes? Since he is a math major also will they look at his grades in his math classes as well? He has a 4.0 in his economics classes but he got one B and one C in his math classes (the rest are As). Is one C enough to disqualify him from PhD programs?

Depends on the program and the major. I suspect it also depends a bit on the phase of the moon. Generally good grades from a great school or great grades from a good school, relevant work or research experience, some luck. I know that no one really cares about GRE scores for physics departments, but couldn't say as much about economics departments.

Originally Posted by Momma_bear

How do you get a professor at another university to hire you for summer research? He could do that next summer. He will be doing work this upcoming school year with the professors at his school. I assume that they know people at other universities since they do (as you note) all come from a small set of schools.

In the sciences there are established programs. Not sure about economics. Asking local faculty is a great way to get started. Even if they don't have graduate students, they were likely once graduate students and may have contacts. They might also be researchers themselves and may have projects suitable for an advanced undergraduate.

Originally Posted by Momma_bear

Asking questions is not being involved. These are questions asked on an internet forum, specifically so that I can get information without being involved.



I am just interested out of curiosity. My husband and I both have advanced degrees but they are professional degrees (MBA, MIS, Law) so we have no idea about the academically oriented graduate school programs. He was so enthusiastic when he called us with the news that this was the path he wanted to take that I was energized and wanted more information.

Of course asking on here isn't being involved. That's why I qualified my statement. Being aware is fine and I'm happy to answer any questions you may have. I included my comment because there are people who feel compelled to continue pushing their children past college, either because their child is totally unmotivated or because they don't yet respect that their child is an adult.