Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It doesn't even matter if you get a merit based scholarship that comes from outside the school. If the financial aid office knows about it, they will reduce the need based financial aid by exactly the amount of outside scholarship you are getting.
That's not exactly true. If your outside scholarships exceed any need-based grants, any remaining scholarship funds will then go to reducing your loans, if loans are a part of your financial aid package (the "leftovers" can also go toward closing any gap if you don't have loans included in your package).
I knew what you meant.
I got 1570 on my SAT, 34 on ACT and was not Harvard material 20 years ago. I did not have any AP classes in my school nor did I do anything particularly impressive in regards to extracurriculars. The best school I got into was Chicago, and I think they just liked me because I lead my high school to quiz bowl championship and they were (are?) obsessed with quiz bowl there. I did end up getting a full ride with room and board to a decent small private school and went to MIT for graduate school.
The Ivies, Stanford and the top engineering schools have gotten even more competitive since then. They are turning down kids with perfect scores. Your kid is competing with the top academic 1% of college bound kids globally and legacy kids of the 1% financially who can donate millions of dollars. My asian-american friends who went to Stanford and MIT as undergrad started prepping for the SAT when they were 12 and went to elite private high schools. (Poly in Pasadena, Philips Andover and Stuy) They also did a lot of other stuff to work the pre-ivy system, like meeting with alumni, joining the proper clubs, going to various feeder summer camps, etc. I don't know what it's like where you're at in Kansas but in NYC, Boston, LA and other areas there are all these activities that all the pre-elite college people know about and participate in. Where I grew up nobody knew about anything like that.
I didn't mean to be insulting just realistic. The bar is extremely high these days. It's one of those situations where if the kid is already a junior and you're just now asking if they are competitive the answer is no. However, there are plenty of other colleges and universities which will likely offer great packages.
In my humble opinion, your post explains exactly why you didn't get into Harvard 20 years ago. Despite having a great SAT/ACT score, your academic record wasn't up to par as you didn't have AP classes and didn't seem to have distinguished yourself outside of the classroom. The "extra" stuff mattered even 20 years ago. Quite frankly, someone with a perfect score on SAT/ACT and a perfect 4.0 GPA isn't as attractive to most of these schools as someone with a 1450 (out of 1600 . . . I use a 1600 scale as many schools aren't giving as much weight to the writing section today) and 3.7-3.8 GPA with a grueling academic schedule and great community service, etc. It's important to keep in mind that, as far as classroom academics go, these schools are conncerned more with you being in the top 10% of your graduating class and having taken a demanding academic course-load than you having a 4.0+ GPA (indeed, someone with a 3.5 GPA from Dalton, which is known to be a very academically rigorous school, will likely stand out more than someone with a 4.0 GPA from a standard public or private school). But don't take my word for it: this is what the admissions reps will tell you. Note, given that only 360 out of over 1 million test takers score a perfect 2400 on the SAT in any given year (3 Students From Same H.S. Get Perfect SAT Scores | NBC 10 Philadelphia), and these top schools have spaces for a collective many thousands of students in each entering class, pointing out that the schools turn away some perfect score candidates is a bit misleading and, if anything, only goes to show that these schools are looking for things other than great test scores.
While the Ivies and other top schools have gotten more competitive over the years (and Harvard's SAT average score 20 years ago was a 1390 for the Class of 1995, http://www.thecrimson.com/article/19...admit-rate-pa/, yet they still rejected higher scores whose "owners" weren't competitive outside of the classroom), let's be clear from the numbers posted above that the great majority of these schools do NOT have their classes made up primarily of people earning perfect scores on SAT/ACT (far from that). I have a friend who was accepted to Princeton (he's white by the way); we went to the same high school. He was always a genius, graduating high school with a 104 GPA when you factor in the AP weighted scale. His SAT score was a 2250. Prior to his senior year, however, I (and others) went out of my way to push him to get involved in leadership activities; I told him that his top school choices were likely to reject his application if, despite stellar grades, his record didn't show what value outside of the classroom he'd bring to campus. Thankfully, he ran for (and won) senior class president, got involved in National Honor Society, and upped his community service hours through the latter. I remain convinced that my friend would not have gotten into his dream school had he not changed course (he also got into Cornell, UPenn, and Brown, among the Ivies).
Looking to the SAT scores at the Ivy League schools (and you'll find this with other very selective schools), you can see that there is a considerable range of scores, although all are still relatively "impressive." Source: Average SAT Scores for Ivy League Schools And, contrary to what some people may believe on this forum, there is substantial variance (within the ranges posted; of course, "substantial" is relative, but my point is that it is far from the case that the great majority of whites and Asians at these schools have 2300+ SAT scores) for whites and Asians as well.
To the OP: if your son is looking into engineering, keep in mind that the "top" engineering program in the Ivy League is largely considered by many to be Cornell, with Princeton being a very close second. Best Undergraduate Engineering Programs | Rankings | US News ; Top US Engineering Schools -- Undergraduate (note, this list is for schools that offer degrees up to doctorates). While both schools are extremely selective, Cornell is a little easier to get into than Princeton. Note, as I've mentioned before, the Ivies are not by a long shot the only top schools in this country and, Ivy or not, I'm sure your son will attend a great University. By the way, I'd encourage your son to apply to as many outside merit scholarships as he can so that money is not as much of an issue at the end of the day if you are not offered a great financial aid package.
Last edited by prospectheightsresident; 12-11-2014 at 08:24 PM..
In my humble opinion, your post explains exactly why you didn't get into Harvard 20 years ago. Despite having a great SAT/ACT score, your academic record wasn't up to par as you didn't have AP classes and didn't seem to have distinguished yourself outside of the classroom. The "extra" stuff mattered even 20 years ago. .[/b]
Saw this thread and decided to sign up to pass along this website with info on the whole college application and financial aid process (no I'm not a bot with a spam link)
Lynn O'Shaughnessy who runs that site has several blogs on this very issue.
We just went through this with our oldest who started college this year. Some of the key things we learned during the process, as mentioned by others, are that the financial "need" as determined by the system will not be what you consider the need. Right or wrong, the financial system assumes that the parents will pay for the education, regardless of whether they do or not, and that a ridiculous percentage of income is available for paying. So, with $125K of annual income, they will probably assume (unless you have significant losses not mentioned) you can afford $30-$40 thousand so "need" will only be the cost above that. The other thing we learned is that college acceptance and many scholarships are only partly based on academic merit and often some apparently random factor like a heart wrenching sob story or something they consider "interesting" will be the deciding factor between two academically equal applicants.
If your average SAT score (on each test) is 650 or above, there is no reason not to apply to an Ivy League school.
Of course, you will have to appeal to those schools on the basis of factors other than test scores and GPA. Below is a list of "pluses" that might help.
1) The school orchestra needs a good bassoonist, and you're a good bassoonist.
2) The school wants to have a geographically diverse class, and you're from a state that is not well represented.
3) The school wants a balance of urban, suburban and rural students, and you come from an under-represented area in this regard.
4) The school wants a balance of poor, middle class and rich students, and you come from an under-represented class in this regard.
5) The school wants to be racially diverse, and your race is underrepresented or otherwise favored by the school.
6) The school asks you to interview with an alumnus or an admissions representative. You are goodlooking, outgoing, engaging, articulate and generally presentable.
8) The school is looking for students who have overcome adversity, shown unusual leadership, performed acts of heroism, devoted themselves to service to others, etc., and you fit this profile.
9) The school actually reads your letters of reference, and the ones you have are impressive and sincere.
10) You have achieved something extraordinary: written a published book, sailed solo around the world, climbed Mt. Everest, speak five languages fluently, etc.
11) The school is seeking a balance of male and female students, and you just happen to be the needed female or male to balance the class.
12) You're an excellent writer, and your essay/personal statement stands out from the rest.
When I applied to Harvard way back when, the school prided itself on producing "leaders."Harvard could have easily filled its entire freshman class with nerds who did nothing but study and earn A's. That's not what Harvard wanted, and I doubt it's what any school really wants.
When my grandfather went to Harvard, it was basically a finishing school for "gentlemen." But those gentlemen were well educated and studied hard if my grandfather is any indication. He went on to Harvard Medical School, became a neurosurgeon and taught at Stanford Medical School.
Bottom line: Dream big but have a back up plan. In other words, shoot for a couple of dream schools, a couple of lesser schools and a couple of "sure things."
Then prepare for all the left-wing indoctrination that will be waiting for you. They call that "education" now.
I went to an Ivy League school and they worked with us quite a bit on my financial package. See if he gets in, and then see what kind of deal they'll make. I took out a good chunk of loans, as did my parents, but in my opinion, it was worth it. My degree opened a lot of doors that I needed opened.
He will have many choices, but nice to have a full tuition paid guarantee as a backup. He qualifies for the University of Alabama Presidential Scholarship. If he has a 32-36 ACT or 1400-1600 GPA and at least a 3.5 cumulative GPA required – he would be automatically selected as a Presidential Scholar and will receive the value of tuition or $99,800 over 4 years.
I knew what you meant.
I got 1570 on my SAT, 34 on ACT and was not Harvard material 20 years ago. I did not have any AP classes in my school nor did I do anything particularly impressive in regards to extracurriculars. The best school I got into was Chicago, and I think they just liked me because I lead my high school to quiz bowl championship and they were (are?) obsessed with quiz bowl there. I did end up getting a full ride with room and board to a decent small private school and went to MIT for graduate school.
The Ivies, Stanford and the top engineering schools have gotten even more competitive since then. They are turning down kids with perfect scores. Your kid is competing with the top academic 1% of college bound kids globally and legacy kids of the 1% financially who can donate millions of dollars. My asian-american friends who went to Stanford and MIT as undergrad started prepping for the SAT when they were 12 and went to elite private high schools. (Poly in Pasadena, Philips Andover and Stuy) They also did a lot of other stuff to work the pre-ivy system, like meeting with alumni, joining the proper clubs, going to various feeder summer camps, etc. I don't know what it's like where you're at in Kansas but in NYC, Boston, LA and other areas there are all these activities that all the pre-elite college people know about and participate in. Where I grew up nobody knew about anything like that.
I didn't mean to be insulting just realistic. The bar is extremely high these days. It's one of those situations where if the kid is already a junior and you're just now asking if they are competitive the answer is no. However, there are plenty of other colleges and universities which will likely offer great packages.
All good and I appreciate the input, I'm not here to have people tell me something they don't believe and trust me...I personally don't give a crap if he goes to one of those schools but I feel like I'd be remiss if I didn't discuss it with them and just had him snap up a state university full-ride.
There's a lot more to the admission discussion but it's all meaningless anyway, it looks like it's just going to be some consideration on our part and if we decide to apply and get rejected or the cost is too high then we'd just take somebody else's offer. *shrug*
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Good info on college financial aid process
