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Old 12-22-2014, 11:17 PM
 
107 posts, read 261,017 times
Reputation: 56

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Quote:
Originally Posted by L210 View Post
I don't know. I come across people all the time who can't find something that's right under their noses. My mother used legal aid for her divorce. If law firms were struggling to find clients for what they're charging, then they would lower their prices. The truth is that they don't have the need to hire more lawyers. Also, you have to be aware that you get what you pay for. If you get a lawyer that charges much less than everyone else, then he or she is probably one of the worst lawyers in the area. By the way, there is such a thing as pre-paid legal services now.

You expect a lawyer to take $200 for every court appearance even though the court appearance could last a few hours in addition to the hours that are spent preparing for the court appearance? Do you expect lawyers to work for $15-20 an hour? Why would they do that when they can make that kind of money with a BA? There are some lawyers that have payment plans and others that work pro bono.
The only problem is that affordable legal services are not right under peoples noses. I already know for a fact that legal aid in our area does NOT help with a divorce. Legal aid has a very narrow scope of work that it does.

Exactly, law firms are not lowering their prices because the DEMAND IS VERY STRONG AND LEGAL SERVICE IS STILL A SCARCE RESOURCE. It's basic supply/demand economics. Even with prepaid legal services, you can still be shelling out thousands of dollars.

Most court appearances do not require a grand total of 15 hours to prepare for. Obviously, in some more extreme cases it will. But it is not uncommon for lawyers to charge a little under a grand for a basic court date with 1-2 hours of research. If the availability of work for lawyers is REALLY that p1ss poor like some of you are making it out to be, then this would not be the case. Yes, the job market for lawyers is not as lucrative as it was in the 90s and early 2000s. There are fewer rich cows for them to slaughter. But it is a far cry from the statement that lawyers can't get any kind of work As others have pointed out, there are plenty of people who would use legal services IF they weren't going to cost a sizable chunk of their annual salary for a case (or in some cases even more than their annual salary).
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Old 12-23-2014, 03:59 AM
 
Location: Chesapeake Bay
6,046 posts, read 4,794,395 times
Reputation: 3544
Quote:
Originally Posted by polski4u View Post
The only problem is that affordable legal services are not right under peoples noses. I already know for a fact that legal aid in our area does NOT help with a divorce. Legal aid has a very narrow scope of work that it does.

Exactly, law firms are not lowering their prices because the DEMAND IS VERY STRONG AND LEGAL SERVICE IS STILL A SCARCE RESOURCE. It's basic supply/demand economics. Even with prepaid legal services, you can still be shelling out thousands of dollars.

Most court appearances do not require a grand total of 15 hours to prepare for. Obviously, in some more extreme cases it will. But it is not uncommon for lawyers to charge a little under a grand for a basic court date with 1-2 hours of research. If the availability of work for lawyers is REALLY that p1ss poor like some of you are making it out to be, then this would not be the case. Yes, the job market for lawyers is not as lucrative as it was in the 90s and early 2000s. There are fewer rich cows for them to slaughter. But it is a far cry from the statement that lawyers can't get any kind of work As others have pointed out, there are plenty of people who would use legal services IF they weren't going to cost a sizable chunk of their annual salary for a case (or in some cases even more than their annual salary).
I am not a lawyer and really have no idea what it takes to prepare for a court appearance. Nor all the work that takes place behind the scene. Nor how much it costs. In short, all the work and effort thats required to be successful in this business is beyond my experience.

So I am totally ignorant in all of this.

On the other hand, you aren't a lawyer either. And you know as little as I do.
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Old 12-23-2014, 01:17 PM
 
7,005 posts, read 12,424,821 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by polski4u View Post
Exactly, law firms are not lowering their prices because the DEMAND IS VERY STRONG AND LEGAL SERVICE IS STILL A SCARCE RESOURCE. It's basic supply/demand economics. Even with prepaid legal services, you can still be shelling out thousands of dollars.
Yes, they are charging what the market can handle. If they were overcharging, then demand would go down. If there was so much unmet demand out there, then law firms would take advantage of it by hiring more lawyers.
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Old 12-23-2014, 04:43 PM
 
107 posts, read 261,017 times
Reputation: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weichert View Post
I am not a lawyer and really have no idea what it takes to prepare for a court appearance. Nor all the work that takes place behind the scene. Nor how much it costs. In short, all the work and effort thats required to be successful in this business is beyond my experience.

So I am totally ignorant in all of this.

On the other hand, you aren't a lawyer either. And you know as little as I do.
I am not an attorney, but I know 100% that what you are saying about poor legal job prospects is false. Plenty of people would use legal services if they were cheaper. I have seen it with my own eyes and others on here have said the same thing. The jobs available won't be as lucrative, since fewer people can afford to pay big bucks. But there are still plenty of jobs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L210 View Post
Yes, they are charging what the market can handle. If they were overcharging, then demand would go down. If there was so much unmet demand out there, then law firms would take advantage of it by hiring more lawyers.
There is a lot of unmet demand out there, but the reason law firms ignore the demand is that it's not in the lucrative segment of the market, as someone already pointed out. $200-$300/hour, for a case requiring many hours of work, is out of reach for a lot of people. The point I am trying to DRILL to all people is that lawyers do not have such lousy job prospects like others are saying. The only reason the big FAT CAT firms aren't hiring is that they were established to chase the big $$$, nothing more. They would rather not work/lay people off than to expand into the less affluent sectors of society.
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Old 12-23-2014, 07:38 PM
 
7,005 posts, read 12,424,821 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by polski4u View Post
There is a lot of unmet demand out there, but the reason law firms ignore the demand is that it's not in the lucrative segment of the market, as someone already pointed out. $200-$300/hour, for a case requiring many hours of work, is out of reach for a lot of people. The point I am trying to DRILL to all people is that lawyers do not have such lousy job prospects like others are saying. The only reason the big FAT CAT firms aren't hiring is that they were established to chase the big $$$, nothing more. They would rather not work/lay people off than to expand into the less affluent sectors of society.
We're not going to agree on this topic. I don't think it's as easy as you make it seem to start up your own practice. These are people who are coming out of school with no money and will probably have a hard time getting a business loan.
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Old 12-23-2014, 11:34 PM
 
Location: Shady Drifter
2,444 posts, read 2,742,983 times
Reputation: 4118
Practicing attorney here.

- The job market is brutal. I have friends who couldn't find a legal job doing anything at all. For every opening, there were literally hundreds of applications. And unpaid internships are all well and good until it's time to write a rent check, or a student loan check, or buy food. Then having a paying job is kind of important. And I don't mean people searching for a six-figure job, I mean they couldn't find a job paying $30,000 a year. And that includes legal aid and indigent defense places, who have no shortage of qualified candidates to choose from.

- The idea that a law degree qualifies you to be anything other than a lawyer is Boomer-era bull. A JD is not some magic key that opens up all kinds of doors. These days, it barely opens up doors in the legal world, much less anywhere else. If there is a job out there that doesn't require a JD, then chances are you didn't need to go to law school to get it. This was maybe good advice back when a JD cost $30,000 to get, but these days going to law school with any intention other than becoming a lawyer is a foolhardy idea that can lead to a mountain of non-dischargeable debt.

- A new graduate from law school is astonishingly unqualified to open a solo practice. It's a desperate, last-ditch solution that will likely put someone in serious trouble with malpractice, as well as finances when they discover they are unable to bring in enough clients to cover the bills.

- Whoever said to cut fees - fees are how everything gets paid for. The office space, the health insurance, the bar dues, the research materials use to help win a case (research resources are insanely expensive), plus actually being able to make a living. Attorneys don't pocket the whole amount billed hourly. $200 for a court appearance would bankrupt an attorney in no time. As for time spent on a matter, drafting a pleading can take a few minutes or a few hours. If something is going to be contentious, you read it twice and then check it again. You do your research and then you check it again, because you better be right the first time. All of that takes time and it adds up. Legal fees are expensive, but I'd be more afraid of a lawyer who doesn't charge much - you get what you pay for (excluding Legal Aid and other similar services). I handled a fairly contentious contract dispute and it probably took 25-30 billed hours over 6 weeks to resolve, and that's without litigation at all. Some things take time. As my boss says, you can do it quick and cheap, or you can do it right, but you can rarely do both together. You can't make a living and run a practice charging $75 an hour. In some cases, $200 for a court appearance wouldn't even cover filing fees.

- As for starting at the bottom and working up to different things, it rarely works that way. If you start out in a crappy ticket defense job, that's more than likely where you stay because those are the skills you develop. I would be utterly lost trying to defend someone in criminal court, but a defense attorney would have no idea how to do my job, even though we are both lawyers.

- Finally, practicalities aside, why shouldn't a lawyer expect to earn a good salary and charge for their work? It takes a lot of time and money and dedication to become an attorney, and they should be fairly compensated like anyone else for their work. I'm not in business to lose money or work for free.
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Old 12-24-2014, 01:41 PM
 
7,005 posts, read 12,424,821 times
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It's nice to hear directly from someone currently in the legal field. This kind of reminds me of when people say that plumbers make a lot of money because they charge $100 per hour. They aren't pocketing all of that money; they have expenses to pay.
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Old 12-24-2014, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, Calif.
30 posts, read 104,788 times
Reputation: 42
To answer the OP's question:

In my humble opinion, given the fact of being already enrolled in college, I really do think that picking a major should come down to how well the student performs in that particular curriculum, his/her interests, future prospectives, and obviously the finances.

When I entered college, my parents really pressured me to pursue something more "technical," such as engineering and business. But knowing myself, I would not thrive in those classes. The best method for me to learn is the theoretical approach. I like to read, write, and critically think about research and other thoughts. But then again, it's a way to prepare myself for grad school in the future. I know that if I had gone and stuck with engineering or business, my grades would have suffered immensely and I would have set myself up for academic failure.

I ended up majoring in one of the social sciences, and I do agree to an extent that it's not as "practical" as other types of degrees. However, the social sciences, particularly Psychology, is changing. Like many other programs, the field stresses knowledge of Statistics and understanding software programs (SPSS, R), which can actually set you up for a decent-paying entry level job right out of undergraduate. My older sister majored in Sociology but took her Statistics very seriously as an undergrad. She landed a marketing research position and is earning roughly 50k right now.

Of course, one must consider the cost of attending school. It's all about finding the balance and the worth of pursuing a degree given his or her circumstances, future goals, and dedication. It's hard for me to really know which degree is worth it or not. Sometimes, a particular major that is not regarded as "practical" can be of personal worth to the individual, which in turn, can lead to greater success later down the path. In my opinion, there's more to it than just the degree, it's also about communication skills as well. Although, not saying that degree doesn't hold weight because it certainly does. But one should be able to learn how to package himself/herself wisely and creatively when they graduate and apply for jobs.
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Old 12-24-2014, 02:48 PM
 
7,005 posts, read 12,424,821 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dxj5069 View Post

I ended up majoring in one of the social sciences, and I do agree to an extent that it's not as "practical" as other types of degrees. However, the social sciences, particularly Psychology, is changing. Like many other programs, the field stresses knowledge of Statistics and understanding software programs (SPSS, R), which can actually set you up for a decent-paying entry level job right out of undergraduate. My older sister majored in Sociology but took her Statistics very seriously as an undergrad. She landed a marketing research position and is earning roughly 50k right now.
I've seen marketing research openings specifically ask for degrees in sociology and psychology, but you need strong skills in statistics as you said. Someone with a psychology degree who knows HTML, CSS, and Java can go into UX. I've seen openings in this field that specifically ask for a degree in cognitive psychology or some other field of psychology.
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Old 12-25-2014, 03:08 PM
 
17 posts, read 24,101 times
Reputation: 22
Don't major in fluffy liberal arts subjects like English and history that lead you to the employment line at McDonald's. Do something rigorous like accounting or engineering.
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