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Having done it there is clearly a dividing line. Had a couple of class mates on it. They made it but it was a close thing. Certain courses were very close to doing them in. In my view neither would have survived in a large school. The support system, including a little cheating, carried them. They each got a couple of hours of tutoring every day. The cheating came from the fraternity files.
I felt it as well. I do very well in school but I was challenged to the point of being just above a C student in chemistry. I understand how things and numbers relate...but I memorize poorly. I passed things like Chemistry by taking advantage of short term memory. I would basically memorize the book in the 48 hours before a final. For three days I could almost write the text book then it would fade to some residual.
Even some very bright students have trouble. We piloted one of the original course in semiconductor digital design. A couple of our 4.0 students found it impossible though I thought it perhaps one of the easier subjects I had ever taken. They just could not get their head around pushing ones and zeroes.
I definitely think that some very intelligent people who excel at other aspects of academics often struggle with math related classes (and vice versa). I know I did. I have never understood math. It had nothing to do with laziness. I have a Master's degree from a top University and it was in a field that required a fair amount of quantitative classes. I just managed to have good grades in the "non math" classes to help bolster my overall GPA.
I have a clear memory of being in 3rd grade and attempting to do math homework, only to get so frustrated that I threw my math book across the room into the wall. From then on, I spent my entire academic career figuring out "what if" scenarios on what grades I would need to do well in each and every semester in spite of math classes. When I started working, I spent a lot of time on spreadsheets and discovered that I tended to occasionally transpose numbers. I am sure that factored somewhere in my inability to understand math.
Now, OTOH, I think my initial bad experiences in math led to a self defeating attitude about it. I spent most of my academic life assuming the worst possible grades in math, making no real attempt to seek out help. Perhaps if I had put more work into it, I might have done better. But, at the end of the day, I didn't really care. I knew I would just go into a field that did not require me to use math routinely.
i cant remember symbols so i get frustrated with higher level math easily. i can usually figure out the logic behind the problems but i dont have the patience for using formulas or ill do a formula backwards or miss a section of a formula or something.
rather harsh better to say that engineering is not for everybody. but far better to be a skilled blue collar success early than find out you are a failure 6 years later and 100k after.
Many people claim that they are not capable of getting through an engineering program because their "brains aren't wired that way" or they "can't do math" or something like that. I personally think that these people simply aren't willing to put in the extra effort it takes to get through a rigorous program like engineering. What do you think?
And just to be clear, this thread is not here to debate the employment prospects of engineers or what peoples' "passions" are. It is a discussion regarding "intellectual capability" vs laziness and excuse making.
I've met some people who are truly terrible when it comes to math. I don't think more effort is the answer.(this person was getting 1/20 questions right in the math section of the GRE).
I agree that for some there are subject areas that no matter how much tutoring, studying, teaching that one cannot simply grasp it. Now the difficulty is often finding the line between "lack of effort" and "I truly do not get it" for it can be hard to differentiae laziness and not getting it, but the line does exist.
For some reason there's a double standard in this. No one would tell a person good at math but bad at writing that they could be a fantastic writer if only they weren't too lazy; nor would you say that anyone could become a talented artist, musician, or athlete if only they put their mind to itt.
I would.
Not that they would be talented. Talent is irrelevant. Only that they could accomplish these things. In other words, barring the truly mentally disabled, I think an average person could be competent in any of these things if they put their mind to it.
Many people claim that they are not capable of getting through an engineering program because their "brains aren't wired that way" or they "can't do math" or something like that. I personally think that these people simply aren't willing to put in the extra effort it takes to get through a rigorous program like engineering. What do you think?
And just to be clear, this thread is not here to debate the employment prospects of engineers or what peoples' "passions" are. It is a discussion regarding "intellectual capability" vs laziness and excuse making.
How many languages can you speak fluently, with native pronunciation? And your friends? Do some of you have trouble learning foreign languages? Oh, you don't have an ear for language? Is that being lazy and making excuses, or does that relate to god-given talent and the way the brain is wired? How about tone deaf people? Are they "lazy" in their music studies?
Get off your high horse and down to reality. Just because something comes easily to you doesn't mean everyone can do it if they'd just apply themselves. They might be able to struggle through to a certain point, but they wouldn't get the same results as you.
Not that they would be talented. Talent is irrelevant. Only that they could accomplish these things. In other words, barring the truly mentally disabled, I think an average person could be competent in any of these things if they put their mind to it.
I've seen "average people" spend years learning to play a musical instrument, and not get as far as someone who only studied it for 3 months. Those people could spend 10 years practicing diligently and still not have much to say for it. Why spend 10 years getting merely competent, when the next person can get to "brilliant" in 1/10 the time? That's fine if they get satisfaction out of their plodding little steps, but let's not harbor any illusions about their capacity to learn and what they can be expected to achieve.
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