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Considering how long and how hard my engineering degree was, how many times I was almost shot down permanently, YEA, I would say that there are those who don't have it get one.
Lord knows, there was certainly enough from the Gods to take out those of us in the lower part of the class.
I would for all of those things except for athlete. That is obviously different. Bigger and taller athletes generally have the advantage and it all comes down to sport science and physics. But even then, you can do a whole lot with acquired skill and willpower.
I do think when it comes down to brain related activities such as artist, musician, math, writing, the majority are born equal. That's why people excel at what their parents do. It's because they were taught it and exposed to it at a young age.
If you are out of that majority, so be it. It's no big deal. You can't do math. Who cares?
Size is only one component of athletic aptitude. With certain sports (like basketball), it's a huge component. Others, it's a very small component (in boxing you compete against your own weight).
Point being, you are trying to oversimplify the 'aptitude' part.
Just as in athletics, people are not born equal when it comes to academic gifts. I'd argue that the disparity is gigantic. That being said, your statement might be technically correct as in a bell curve, the majority will find themselves somewhere in the middle. In practical application, that's useless to the outliers, though.
Size is only one component of athletic aptitude. With certain sports (like basketball), it's a huge component. Others, it's a very small component (in boxing you compete against your own weight).
Point being, you are trying to oversimplify the 'aptitude' part.
Just as in athletics, people are not born equal when it comes to academic gifts. I'd argue that the disparity is gigantic. That being said, your statement might be technically correct as in a bell curve, the majority will find themselves somewhere in the middle. In practical application, that's useless to the outliers, though.
Yea, see.
We differ there. I think the disparity is smaller.
I think where people get separated is when it comes down to work ethic and focus. Which, BTW, I don't consider myself a very successful person at all, so consider that. In fact, I consider myself somewhat of a failure.
Anyway, if it's something you don't like, then who cares if you suck at it? I'm not going to get into the math, because people are very touchy about it.
But if it's something you love, like music, then why would you convince yourself that you had no aptitude to do it and were at the bottom of the bell curve? Damaging attitude. Most people can learn to play music.
That is, for that 95%, based on their upbringing, parents, background and ingrained work ethic, they could be successful musicians, engineers, doctors, writers, etc. I definitely think I could have been, perhaps not Bill Gates, but a rich doctor or a great musician if I wasn't such a lazy POS posting thousands of messages on online forums .
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I grew up in a community were Asian parents forced their kids to be good at everything and most them were good at everything through sheer force. Math, science, writing, music, etc. Of course, I didn't say this was a good thing.
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I'm not sure I'd go as far as your 95% number. But without question, how much you work with your kids (including expectations) influence the end product. When I grew up, "college" was never mentioned. I have 5 brothers. Some dropped out, zero stepped a toe in a vocational school or college. I was the only one of 6 that went beyond HS. I got praise because I did better than them but certainly didn't set the world on fire in HS. The word college was NEVER mentioned in the home. Ever. I didn't graduate with honors. I went to a votech, got a job tech job at Honeywell, and figured I needed a 4 year degree. Zero credits transferred and I was on the "decade plan" while Honeywell paid for the whole price tag at the UofMN.
So if I was prodded like we nurtured our kids, I am sure I would have more easily handled the engineering curriculum. I'm convinced I didn't achieve all that I could even though I am not complaining. But some of my smarts were left on the table because my parents didn't expect any performance what-so-ever. To some degree, it was that era.
With our kids, we did everything we could. DS won the lottery in the brain power category and DD certainly is smarter than I was. She is going to be a dentist (2 years left to go). She got her Mom's common sense and effeciency. My son got my technical brain and his professors think he is brilliant. He picked up my serial port brain which doesn't help on the hockey rink (he cannot see the ice). That too is a God given talent (I know you like hockey).
We agree that family culture has sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much influence. I kind of wish I was encouraged to be my very best. At least I know I didn't leave anything on the table with them. Neither wanted to be an engineer. In fact, I discouraged them from a job that can easily be outsourced. Age discrimination for engineers are a real concern. Not so much for dentists and Doc's.
Timed tests for slower test takers should not be categorized as sudden stroke of enlightenment.
Re: ACT and SAT and engineering.
In the ACT Mathematics section, you need to answer around 60 questions in 60 Minutes or a question a minute including:
14 Pre-Algebra Questions
10 Elementary Algebra Questions
9 Intermediate Algebra Questions
9 Coordinate Geometry Questions
14 Plane Geometry Questions
4 Trigonometry Questions
As you know, these questions are not difficult even a C- caliber engineer. So why look at the ACT score in math for PhD candidates? The material still is a piece of cake for my C+ caliber brain. But as you know the college engineering calculus sequence concepts are infinitely more complex than HS Algebra, geometry, and trig.
So for those who finish faster either have a better tuned CPU's, they practiced more, they had a better memory so they didn't need to practice, or they took a test that helped them test. My son fit that last model. He was 1st in his MN HS class out of 650 kids. A finalists in History day, Boys state etc etc. Was in college in the 11th and 12 grade. Was a 20 hour a week college tutor in calc, chem, and biology. Tested in the top 1/2 of 1% on his 11th grade in Chem college standardized tests (same test at Harvard or a CC in Podunk, Alabama). Obviously he grasped algebra, trig, and geometry. Yet back then, your company and selection approach would not have hired him. He didn't do outstanding on the ACT. He got a 26 on the ACT math section without practice in 9th grade. With practice and age he got it up to a 29 (600ish on the SAT scale) in 11th grade and he could not get higher. Then we learned that ACT sells the tests with his answers. We bought it and I saw that pattern. All of the ones he got wrong were in the last portion.
We finally sent him to Kaplan the summer of 11th grade ($1K price tag) which explained how to always solve questions more efficiently. Kaplan said running out of time was the big problem for a lot of students. One techniques was to always solve the middle multiple choice test question 1st. That because the multiple choice answers are presented in ascending order. You then extrapolate your answer (educated guess) based off of the magnitude that you are off. He got his score up to a 34 (I think) on the math section all the while he still had to guess on the final questions because he still ran out of time. Given 5 more minutes, he would have gotten a perfect score. But he is a serial port brain and is analytical. Certainly not a savant. Without our check book and parents who do the same, we could not have gamed the score and he would not be in a top 10 engineering college (bioengineering but he is planning on taking his MCAT next month).
Now he is a junior taking college classes along side several 34-36 ACT students (it's a top 3 Service Academy). Many high ACT testing students have tapped the ceiling when it comes to the engineering classes and they are now struggling on the weeder courses. He is currently ranked #1 academically in his class. Without the Kaplan test, his school would not have accepted him.
Those are a lot of words to say that I certainly would never sort PHD level candidates in engineering based off of a HS algebra, trig, and geometry timed test. A high school ACT or SAT would then have to be meaningless. It would be like testing basic grammar to a PhD English major.
I would be mildly skeptical the kid will ever be very good at development engineering. The inability to figure out the test protocol would be a bad sign. Good engineers are unable not to do that.
This was not a Phd thing. Just undergraduate engineers. It was also not a pass/fail thing. Depend on the job and other stuff and might get disregarded altogether. With me, for development types, the Q=CV discussion was vastly more important. It thrust the engineer into an area that he had never thought of...and then we see if he can figure out the game.
I'm not sure I'd go as far as your 95% number. But without question, how much you work with your kids (including expectations) influence the end product. When I grew up, "college" was never mentioned. I have 5 brothers. Some dropped out, zero stepped a toe in a vocational school or college. I was the only one of 6 that went beyond HS. I got praise because I did better than them but certainly didn't set the world on fire in HS. The word college was NEVER mentioned in the home. Ever. I didn't graduate with honors. I went to a votech, got a job tech job at Honeywell, and figured I needed a 4 year degree. Zero credits transferred and I was on the "decade plan" while Honeywell paid for the whole price tag at the UofMN.
So if I was prodded like we nurtured our kids, I am sure I would have more easily handled the engineering curriculum. I'm convinced I didn't achieve all that I could even though I am not complaining. But some of my smarts were left on the table because my parents didn't expect any performance what-so-ever. To some degree, it was that era.
With our kids, we did everything we could. DS won the lottery in the brain power category and DD certainly is smarter than I was. She is going to be a dentist (2 years left to go). She got her Mom's common sense and effeciency. My son got my technical brain and his professors think he is brilliant. He picked up my serial port brain which doesn't help on the hockey rink (he cannot see the ice). That too is a God given talent (I know you like hockey).
We agree that family culture has sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much influence. I kind of wish I was encouraged to be my very best. At least I know I didn't leave anything on the table with them. Neither wanted to be an engineer. In fact, I discouraged them from a job that can easily be outsourced. Age discrimination for engineers are a real concern. Not so much for dentists and Doc's.
Yea, that's very cool though. You thought probably there was no way you could be an engineer based on your upbringing, and then you got an engineering degree later in life. I think most people are capable of quite a bit. Humans are amazing animals who do amazing things.
If someone tells me they don't have the intellect to do a certain something, they know themselves far better than I and it's fine with me for then not to attempt whatever is in question.
I would be mildly skeptical the kid will ever be very good at development engineering. The inability to figure out the test protocol would be a bad sign. Good engineers are unable not to do that.
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It's a speed issue not a testing protocol. Hence, your approach for sorting (IMHO) has it's flaws. To any 2 bit engineer, the math ACT is elementary at best. So since everyone doesn't get a near perfect grade, it stands to reason the speed portion is the item that trips most gifted math kids. They designed the test that way on purpose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvoc
This was not a Phd thing. Just undergraduate engineers. It was also not a pass/fail thing. Depend on the job and other stuff and might get disregarded altogether. With me, for development types, the Q=CV discussion was vastly more important. It thrust the engineer into an area that he had never thought of...and then we see if he can figure out the game.
One will never know for sure.
I do agree with this statement. It is a very smart sorting approach. IMHO, figuring out something that is outside of your comfort zone and expertise is a great way of sorting. That's what personally tripped me up even in the class room. The prof switched things up a little and those who only learned the basics crumbled. The curve is what saved most of the students ESPECIALLY kids like me. So you get a couple students that get a 98% than the next batch is in the mid 80%. There is a huge brainpower difference between those groups. 50% of the class could be in the 60-70% range and they would round them up 10% based off of the curve. If it matters, my DS is that top 2% pack. At parents weekend, the profs went out of their way to comment. DD on the other hand is in the 2nd pack (80-85ish and with a curve 90-95 percent). Less brain power with a 3.75% in the sciences. Now the DS USE to have an OCD of having to double check his work. It's a problem of being a perfectionist and methodical in nature. A Service Academy soon fix that problem. One of the SA goals is time management. They put more on your plate than most can handle. Efficiency is key. It's why the average service academy GPA is 2.65. No grade inflation what-so-ever even with that curve like at the UofMN.
So the trick is to figure out who those outliers are that can solve problems. Your gave a good example on how to do so. But IMHO, you are missing it on the standardized test. If you really measured that and sorted who you hired, then you let a bunch of good ones go. They all landed on their feet and succeeded somewhere else. Not a big deal.
Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 12-30-2014 at 01:39 PM..
It's a speed issue not a testing protocol. Hence, your approach for sorting (IMHO) has it's flaws. To any 2 bit engineer, the math ACT is elementary at best. So since everyone doesn't get a near perfect grade, it stands to reason the speed portion is the item that trips most gifted math kids. They designed the test that way on purpose.
One will never know for sure.
I do agree with this statement. It is a very smart sorting approach. IMHO, figuring out something that is outside of your comfort zone and expertise is a great way of sorting. That's what personally tripped me up even in the class room. The prof switched things up a little and those who only learned the basics crumbled. The curve is what saved most of the students. So you get a couple students that get a 98% than the next batch is in the mid 80%. There is a huge brainpower difference between those groups. 50% of the class could be in the 60-70% range and they would round them up. If it matters, my DS is that top 2% pack. DD is int he 2nd pack (85ish and with a curve 95ish). So it seems you might have messed up on your predictions. He USE to have an OCD of having to double check his work. It's a problem of being a perfectionist or methodical in nature. A Service Academy soon fix that problem. One of the goals is time management. They put more on your plate than you can handle. It's why the average service academy GPA is 2.65. No grade inflation what-so-ever.
Don't misunderstand. I am not knocking the kid. A 2% kid from a military academy is very likely to end up running the store. That is regardless of how good he is at development. And the boss of big development shops is often not a good development type. He or she needs to understand the development process but they don't need the driving creativity of the development types. They need to understand but not create.
But they do have to be smart enough to understand.
it might be a vicious racial attack or insult to a intellectually and genetically superior being. or it could be that you need to learn to weld son.
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