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Old 03-17-2015, 06:59 PM
 
3,613 posts, read 4,096,046 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rarog View Post
Look, the Ivies (and similarly prestigious schools) can get your resume enough attention for an interview across the country. Other good schools, whether it's Ohio State or Arizona or Indiana, will likely only get you interviews in-state. You can be successful with a degree from either type of school, but everyone wants to hire locally in this economy, so when you choose where to go, you should consider where you want to live long-term.

Before you all start bashing me, this is for entry-level, little-to-no experience candidates (maybe a summer internship, maybe a personal project, etc.).
I don't know about that. I think there are a lot of places nationally that will see an Ivy grad come across their desk and think that they might get 2 years out of them and pass. They want local people because local people are more likely to stay long term. Training employees is very expensive and they don't want to be the company that trains someone that doesn't want to stay. Not to mention grade inflation that goes on at the Ivys and many people questioning their actual educational experience...
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Old 03-17-2015, 07:03 PM
 
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nothing matters, why bother
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Old 03-17-2015, 07:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mizzourah2006 View Post
So then how can you say it doesn't matter at all? If you truly believed that you wouldn't need to know anything else about them.

You are trying to imply causality, I am simply trying to show there is a correlation. I don't think anyone is arguing that it causes you to be successful, just that graduates of Ivy league schools have a higher probability of success.
Hi. I'm another one of those annoying stats and research methods people, so I feel your pain. Anecdotal stories are fine to demonstrate some things, but this is not really one of them.

There is correlation between where you attend and how successful you'll be, controlling for experience. Sure, someone who has 20 years of experience and gets an MBA from Podunk State U might be fine, but that doesn't help the traditional-aged college student. There could be a spurious relationship between the prestige of the college and success that is ultimately caused by the person being motivated and intelligent. Those who get into highly selective colleges could just be very smart and driven and will succeed in anything they do in life. There could also be causality from the school's reputation, quality of instruction, and network.

The article didn't just say Ivy League schools; it said Ivy League and equally selective schools. There are non-Ivy League schools that rank higher than some of the Ivy Leagues. Ivy League and equally selective is a very small group. It could be possible that those who come from Top 50 or Top 100 schools do, in fact, do better on the job market. This could mean that attending University of Phoenix or Podunk State U could have a negative impact on your job search after all. In the end, just focusing on the CEOs of Fortune 500 companies is not a good way to look for the correlation between school selectivity and success.

Additionally, some mid and low-ranked schools are ranked very high in certain fields. Ivy Leagues and equally selective schools are not the highest-ranking schools across the board. Many times, reputation in the field is much more important than overall reputation.
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Old 03-17-2015, 07:27 PM
 
Location: NY/LA
4,646 posts, read 4,514,847 times
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As far as getting your foot in the door at a company, it would be interesting to see an experiment where they take two sets of identical resumes and then only change the name at the top of the education section, so that one group represents 'elite' schools and the other list represents 'non-elite' schools.

Maybe send them out to positions at the companies on one of those "best places to work" lists.

Maybe also narrow it down to positions with six-figure salaries.

This is just a gut feeling, but I would be shocked if the 'elite' group did not receive more interview offers.
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Old 03-17-2015, 07:42 PM
 
5,342 posts, read 6,139,671 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwerty View Post
No, you are trying to say that simply going to Harvard is going to give you an edge and that is not at all correct. There are many other factors to consider and just knowing where someone went to college does not equal success. I know out of work Ivy league grads and U of Phoenix grads that are running successful companies.

Ivy grads have no more probability of success then anyone else simply because they went to an Ivy. It just means they graduated from an Ivy league school.
Where did I ever say going to Harvard gives you an edge? I said if you take a random cross-section of people from universities the probability of an Ivy grad earning a higher salary is greater than your run of the mill state school or UofP.

You can try to put words in my mouth, but it doesn't change what I said.

If what you said is true, that it truly doesn't matter at all, why is the pay scale list of top earning graduates littered with tiny elite schools and Ivy's/Ivy equivalent's?

http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/bachelors

You should probably work on your understanding of probability and statistics, because by definition Ivy grads have a higher probability of earning a high salary if the median salary of graduates is higher.

What you are doing is essentially saying it doesn't matter how tall you are when it comes to success in basketball. I know short people in the NBA and tall people that are so clumsy they can't even walk straight let alone shoot a basketball.
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Old 03-17-2015, 07:51 PM
 
5,342 posts, read 6,139,671 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L210 View Post
Hi. I'm another one of those annoying stats and research methods people, so I feel your pain. Anecdotal stories are fine to demonstrate some things, but this is not really one of them.

There is correlation between where you attend and how successful you'll be, controlling for experience. Sure, someone who has 20 years of experience and gets an MBA from Podunk State U might be fine, but that doesn't help the traditional-aged college student. There could be a spurious relationship between the prestige of the college and success that is ultimately caused by the person being motivated and intelligent. Those who get into highly selective colleges could just be very smart and driven and will succeed in anything they do in life. There could also be causality from the school's reputation, quality of instruction, and network.

The article didn't just say Ivy League schools; it said Ivy League and equally selective schools. There are non-Ivy League schools that rank higher than some of the Ivy Leagues. Ivy League and equally selective is a very small group. It could be possible that those who come from Top 50 or Top 100 schools do, in fact, do better on the job market. This could mean that attending University of Phoenix or Podunk State U could have a negative impact on your job search after all. In the end, just focusing on the CEOs of Fortune 500 companies is not a good way to look for the correlation between school selectivity and success.

Additionally, some mid and low-ranked schools are ranked very high in certain fields. Ivy Leagues and equally selective schools are not the highest-ranking schools across the board. Many times, reputation in the field is much more important than overall reputation.
I guess I never realized how complex basic statistics is....

I wasn't using CEOs to bolster my argument, just saying that the OPs article was usin it as an argument that it doesn't matter when the data itself showed that 30% were Ivy or equivalent graduates. Unless those schools make up 30% of universities in the US that data does not come close to providing evidence for his hypothesis. If it truly didn't matter at all the % of CEOs in the fortune 100 should be reflective of the U.S. university system. Even if you said Ivy's and their equivalents reflected 50 universities and assumed all universities graduated the same # of students (which isn't true at all, more elite schools have smaller classes) the most you should expect is 4-5 CEOs from those top 50 schools, not 30.
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Old 03-17-2015, 07:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mizzourah2006 View Post
I guess I never realized how complex basic statistics is....

I wasn't using CEOs to bolster my argument, just saying that the OPs article was usin it as an argument that it doesn't matter when the data itself showed that 30% were Ivy or equivalent graduates. Unless those schools make up 30% of universities in the US that data does not come close to providing evidence for his hypothesis. If it truly didn't matter at all the % of CEOs in the fortune 100 should be reflective of the U.S. university system. Even if you said Ivy's and their equivalents reflected 50 universities and assumed all universities graduated the same # of students (which isn't true at all, more elite schools have smaller classes) the most you should expect is 4-5 CEOs from those top 50 schools, not 30.
I wasn't disagreeing with you; I was disagreeing with the article and other posters. The author tried to use CEOs to prove a point. I think you misunderstood what I said about the Top 50 schools. The Top 50 schools would be an expansion of the small group of Ivy Leagues and equally selective schools even though I'm making an assumption. The author didn't provide a range for what's considered "equally selective" or if they are truly looking at exact matches. What I'm trying to say is how many of those CEOs graduated from schools that are not Top 50 or Top 100? If hardly any of them went to low-ranked schools, then that disproves what the author is saying. Looking at only Ivy Leagues and equivalents is too narrow to say that school choice does not matter. Texas A&M and Penn State may not be Ivy League equivalents, but they still have excellent reputations and are much more highly-regarded than University of Phoenix and Podunk State U.

Last edited by L210; 03-17-2015 at 08:11 PM..
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Old 03-17-2015, 08:20 PM
 
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The author of this book, Frank Bruni, tries to make a point that college choice does not matter by using the CEO of Disney. He graduated from Ithaca College. Well, Ithaca College is ranked #9 among regional universities in the North. It's not an Ivy League equivalent, but it's certainly not just any school. I believe this story is about to air on CNN, sadly. The research done for this seems so poor. Does the CEO of Disney having graduated from Ithaca prove that a graduate of Devry has an equal chance of becoming the CEO of Disney?
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Old 03-17-2015, 08:37 PM
 
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This is, unfortunately, quite common when selling the latest management fad to the "CEOs" of various small businesses. Pick a successfully person, then write a book saying do what they did. Probably the most extreme form of cherry picking and using anecdotes there could be. Just like everyone on here says "CEO" when they use the anecdote of someone being successful. But there is a far cry between the CEO of a local plumbing shop and the CEO of a Fortune 50.
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Old 03-18-2015, 07:22 AM
 
3,613 posts, read 4,096,046 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
This is, unfortunately, quite common when selling the latest management fad to the "CEOs" of various small businesses. Pick a successfully person, then write a book saying do what they did. Probably the most extreme form of cherry picking and using anecdotes there could be. Just like everyone on here says "CEO" when they use the anecdote of someone being successful. But there is a far cry between the CEO of a local plumbing shop and the CEO of a Fortune 50.
So the CEO of the local plumbing shop is not successful?


How about doctors, are they not successful? Harvard's placement rate into medical schools is lower than most smaller colleges. If you were planning on med school, wouldn't you want to go to a school that has 100% of it's grads get into med school vs 85%?

Santa Clara University - College of Arts and Sciences - Pre-Health -Admission Statistics

Juniata College | Colleges That Change Lives

What about engineers, are they not successful, most of the Ivy's don't even have engineering programs.

There are about 21,000,000 college students in the US right now, and about 56,000 of those students go to an Ivy League school.
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