Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education > Colleges and Universities
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-07-2015, 10:58 PM
 
12,639 posts, read 8,862,933 times
Reputation: 34574

Advertisements

The answer is very simple, really. Let's just define everything as a subset of liberal arts. Then the degree in social basket weaving is the same as the degree in chemical/aero/electrical/engineering/physics of IT and therefore the market should pay the same.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-07-2015, 11:06 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,077 posts, read 107,088,272 times
Reputation: 115874
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
The answer is very simple, really. Let's just define everything as a subset of liberal arts. Then the degree in social basket weaving is the same as the degree in chemical/aero/electrical/engineering/physics of IT and therefore the market should pay the same.
You'd be surprised at how well "basket weaving" pays. A friend of mine majored in that, focussing on an obscure traditional Alaska Native textile weaving technique that's actually a basketry technique. This textile art was a lost art at the time, that got revived. Before she even graduated, she was commissioned by a museum to make a traditional blanket in that style. It paid her enough to move to Alaska and live for a year at the local COL there. She was able to build her career on weaving those blankets for museums and collectors.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-07-2015, 11:37 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
23,896 posts, read 32,199,228 times
Reputation: 67816
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
I see nothing wrong with majoring in a traditional liberal art. I majored in history and have done fine. After your first job your major doesn't matter anyway, and your first job is usually most dependent on your network. For my first job I knew someone that knew someone, he made a call and I got an interview.

When they rank salary figures your english, philosophy, history, political science, economics majors are in the middle. It should also be noted It's things like theater and early childhood education that don't pay well. Wow, I never would have guessed that theater was not a high paying field!

Actually most degree holders are in a pretty similar place indicating that differences in individual skill diffrentiates them more - there's a group of about 20 majors that have high attrition and they are in demand as a result (engineering related fields mostly, some medical). Then the next 70 majors all have average incomes in similar middle-class ranges. Even art history is in this range. Then there are your poorly compensated majors that round out the bottom 20-30 that include traditional low paying fields like music, divinity/theology, drama, social work, elementary education. Also in this range are the generic no-major majors like "social sciences" or "liberal studies." Anything with "studies" at the end should be avoided.

Actually I think the specific vocational degrees are a problem - ie: hospitality, criminal justice. If your degree is something that on-the-job training provides normally there is a problem.

I will also note that "liberal arts" includes the natural sciences and mathematics.

If you'd like to ONLY focus on STEM, please take a look at what happened to the Soviet Union. The USSR had policies that said "there will be 35 art historians every year, no more no less" and everyone else should study something "useful."

They did get to space first and had some decent fighter jets.
Totalitarian regimes always push what is useful to the state. Too many people who are knowledgeable of history, political science, sociology, philosophy and literature, are frightening to governments who wish to control the populace.

They also, historically attack intellectuals and free thinkers. Nazi Germany imprisoned the intellectuals of every religion. They were dangerous to their vile plan.

Since corporate America has been making an attempt to control our politicians and our government, does anyone else think that the STEM push and the denigration of the liberal arts are perhaps might signify a shift away from democracy and towards an oligarchy? And that this attack on the liberal arts might be related?

"Artists make terrible slaves". So do philosophers, historians and social scientists.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2015, 05:47 PM
 
12,639 posts, read 8,862,933 times
Reputation: 34574
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
You'd be surprised at how well "basket weaving" pays. A friend of mine majored in that, focussing on an obscure traditional Alaska Native textile weaving technique that's actually a basketry technique. This textile art was a lost art at the time, that got revived. Before she even graduated, she was commissioned by a museum to make a traditional blanket in that style. It paid her enough to move to Alaska and live for a year at the local COL there. She was able to build her career on weaving those blankets for museums and collectors.

I said everyone should get a degree in it.

Honestly I'm the person who believes that everyone should study what best fits their life and personality. I have one child who's studying physics and another heading toward history, but each fits their personality. The only point I've tried to make through this whole thing, which some people can't seem to stand, is that regardless of what the proper, historical, academic definition of liberal arts is, to include science, it is pointless to take that position when discussing liberal arts with most people because most of the public considers subjects such as English, history, social studies, etc as liberal arts, and science and engineering as, well, science and engineering. Anything else comes across as distracting from the actual point of the discussion.

I get, frankly, frustrated by those who set out to prove that liberal arts as just as good as STEM, not because I believe one is better than the other, but because it's the wrong argument; you don't need to prove that because both are the same -- an educated populace. When you make that argument, many out there see it as proof that a liberal arts education is a waste of time and money and therefore we should cut funding for college education.

And that's what we're fighting folks. Not STEM vs liberal arts, but against a growing population that considers education an elitist waste of resources.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2015, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,300,450 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by L210 View Post
A few weeks ago, I had to explain to my students how HIV spreads because most of them had misconceptions. There are a lot of seemingly common sense things most people don't know. A few times before, I have posted many definitions from dictionaries and university websites that include mathematics and the natural sciences as liberal arts. I'm not going to post them again because it obviously does no good. People are going to believe what they want to believe. I'll just say this: the liberal arts are called liberal arts because they are the subjects free people classically studied in Western Civilization. Anything that counts toward general education requirements at most schools is usually a liberal art. These subjects are inherently theoretical even though they can be used for practical purposes. Engineering and information technology are applied subjects. I wouldn't even classify nursing as STEM; it's healthcare. Interestingly, a couple of government agencies have classified many of the social sciences as STEM, but do not include healthcare degrees made for practitioners. They only include things like medical science.
I was with you until the bold. I have a science degree, Bachelor of Science in Nursing. Believe it or not, I had to take quite a few science courses to get that degree. What "a couple of government agencies" call it is irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
There's nothing wrong with liberal arts degrees per se. The problem is employers increasingly want specialized knowledge and they don't view liberal arts degrees that favorably. That has essentially made liberal arts degrees a luxury that middle class people can't afford.
Oh, baloney! My brother majored in history; he had a career in human resources. My son-in-law majored in math, then got an engineering master's. He's working in engineering, not living under a bridge. My daughters both majored in biology; one went on to get a doctorate in physical therapy, the other got a master's in public health. Both are working and living above the bridge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marigolds6 View Post
Um, Jobs went to Reed, the most liberal arts of liberal arts schools, and said that his most important class there was calligraphy. Gates went to Harvard, also a strongly liberal arts school, and never majored in any thing but basically exclusively studied liberal arts fields while he was there.
Jobs only went to college one semester. He may have been a brainiac in computers, but he made some huge mistakes in his own health care, which he later regretted. It might have helped if he had finished his degree; he may not have thought he knew everything about everything if he had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L210 View Post
The wages for people with undergraduate degrees in biology are not that great.

Majors That Pay You Back - 2013-2014 College Salary Report

I was going to major in biology, but once I assessed the job market, I determined that the wages wouldn't make it worth it. I was living in a city that does a lot of biomedical research at the time. The biggest research institute was mostly looking for people with engineering and chemistry degrees. The lab jobs I came across paid $10-15 an hour. I still plan on getting an associate's degree in biology for personal fulfillment, but I don't plan on working in the field.
I agree about the lab jobs; one of my daughters looked into them as well. That's why she got the MPH.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2015, 09:16 PM
 
7,005 posts, read 12,424,821 times
Reputation: 5478
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallsAngel View Post
I was with you until the bold. I have a science degree, Bachelor of Science in Nursing. Believe it or not, I had to take quite a few science courses to get that degree. What "a couple of government agencies" call it is irrelevant.
Many BS in Psychology programs require biology courses. Biological anthropology is classified as a social science, but it's really just biology. Those who are in doctoral psychology programs have to take courses in statistics and psychopharmacology. Interestingly, the government has classified the behavioral sciences (psychology, anthropology, and sociology) as STEM in and of themselves regardless of their inclusion of the natural sciences. Of course, many people would disagree even though biological/physical anthropology has more in common with biology than the social sciences.

My reasoning for not classifying healthcare programs as STEM is because they don't fit in to any of the STEM categories. Having to take chemistry and biology courses doesn't make nursing, physical therapy, or occupational therapy chemistry or biology. Chemistry, biology, physics, geology, etc. are sciences in and of themselves. Computer science and engineering majors have to take physical science and advanced math courses, but that doesn't make them physical sciences or mathematics. The healthcare fields are like engineering where they take theoretical subjects such as chemistry and make them applied; but, unlike engineering, the healthcare majors haven't been given a slot in STEM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2015, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,300,450 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by L210 View Post
Many BS in Psychology programs require biology courses. Biological anthropology is classified as a social science, but it's really just biology. Those who are in doctoral psychology programs have to take courses in statistics and psychopharmacology. Interestingly, the government has classified the behavioral sciences (psychology, anthropology, and sociology) as STEM in and of themselves regardless of their inclusion of the natural sciences. Of course, many people would disagree even though biological/physical anthropology has more in common with biology than the social sciences.

My reasoning for not classifying healthcare programs as STEM is because they don't fit in to any of the STEM categories. Having to take chemistry and biology courses doesn't make nursing, physical therapy, or occupational therapy chemistry or biology. Chemistry, biology, physics, geology, etc. are sciences in and of themselves. Computer science and engineering majors have to take physical science and advanced math courses, but that doesn't make them physical sciences or mathematics. The healthcare fields are like engineering where they take theoretical subjects such as chemistry and make them applied; but, unlike engineering, the healthcare majors haven't been given a slot in STEM.
Yeah, we're just the step-children of STEM. Thanks for stating what many think, we're not really educated, we're "trained".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2015, 01:45 PM
 
2,401 posts, read 3,243,437 times
Reputation: 1837
The idea that a degree is going to get you a career is obsolete by a few generations. Education is not vocational training. The goal of education has never been to train people to be good workers. Not 2000 years ago. Not today. Education teaches you about the world, about how to be wholesome individuals. If you want to get a good job out of college, get some internships and learn professional skills while in college.

Establishing a career has much more to do with your attitude, your life skills, and your character than with your education.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2015, 05:23 PM
 
7,005 posts, read 12,424,821 times
Reputation: 5478
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallsAngel View Post
Yeah, we're just the step-children of STEM. Thanks for stating what many think, we're not really educated, we're "trained".
Applied professional education is still education.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2015, 05:43 PM
 
Location: Ohio
229 posts, read 381,508 times
Reputation: 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallsAngel View Post
Yeah, we're just the step-children of STEM. Thanks for stating what many think, we're not really educated, we're "trained".
Healthcare is not STEM, and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, many people feel healthcare is better than STEM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education > Colleges and Universities
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top