Cornell Expels and Fines Student for Not Disclosing Community College Attendance (degrees, medical school)
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There is usually a deadline to drop a course before receiving a W. After that, there is a deadline to drop a course to receive a W, and that can be as far as the middle of the term. I think the lesson here is that, if you've been enrolled long enough to generate letters on a transcript, then you should disclose the college on applications.
Agree. If the question was phrased as "attended" and not graduated from or earned credits at or similar, then she still attended even if she withdrew from the classes without getting a grade. I'm not saying it was the case here, but if someone was registered for a school and was kicked out for disciplinary reasons, then wouldn't a subsequent college have a valid interest in knowing they attended that school, so they could inquire further about why they left?
Oh man, I knew of a kid that did this. He wasn't sure if he wanted to major in biology or psychology. So he took both classes in community college before his senior year to see what he'd like best. It became pretty clear that he didn't like psychology and had already taken AP Biology, so he dropped both classes a month in and mostly worked as a lifeguard at the pool for the rest of the summer. I bet he didn't submit those transcripts.
A guy I went to school with did not disclose a few classes he took and completed in college years before when he was in the military. At the beginning of his junior year, he simply disclosed the classes, had transcripts sent, and the university just evaluated the classes. Nothing ever was said, done or anything, just got credits for them applied towards his degree.
THis is the part of the educational model I disagree with. If you fail or do poorly on a class its on your record FOREVER. No forgiveness. Its up to the humanly fallible admissions counsel to decide to hold that against you or not. Im of the belief that if you took some CC classes right out of high school 15 years ago and did poorly, then it shouldnt matter at all today. Employers (other than the Fed govt) could care less about the job you had 15 years ago...
THis is the part of the educational model I disagree with. If you fail or do poorly on a class its on your record FOREVER. No forgiveness. Its up to the humanly fallible admissions counsel to decide to hold that against you or not. Im of the belief that if you took some CC classes right out of high school 15 years ago and did poorly, then it shouldnt matter at all today. Employers (other than the Fed govt) could care less about the job you had 15 years ago...
We've had a few people on this forum complain about how they went to college 15 years ago and how horrible it was that they weren't being given credit for those classes. If people did well, they want it to count, if they did badly, they want it ignored.
Oh man, I knew of a kid that did this. He wasn't sure if he wanted to major in biology or psychology. So he took both classes in community college before his senior year to see what he'd like best. It became pretty clear that he didn't like psychology and had already taken AP Biology, so he dropped both classes a month in and mostly worked as a lifeguard at the pool for the rest of the summer. I bet he didn't submit those transcripts.
He's a doctor now.
Well, an introductory behavioral science course is a prerequisite to medical school.
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Originally Posted by thatguydownsouth
THis is the part of the educational model I disagree with. If you fail or do poorly on a class its on your record FOREVER. No forgiveness. Its up to the humanly fallible admissions counsel to decide to hold that against you or not. Im of the belief that if you took some CC classes right out of high school 15 years ago and did poorly, then it shouldnt matter at all today. Employers (other than the Fed govt) could care less about the job you had 15 years ago...
If you need a security clearance, then they do care. If you're going into a public safety position at any level of government, they often do care about some job you were fired from 15 years ago.
Some states do have academic fresh start programs, but they don't allow you to pick and choose what you keep. You have to get rid of all of your old credits.
There is usually a deadline to drop a course before receiving a W. After that, there is a deadline to drop a course to receive a W, and that can be as far as the middle of the term. I think the lesson here is that, if you've been enrolled long enough to generate letters on a transcript, then you should disclose the college on applications.
There isn't really enough in the story to say much either way. While seemingly weak as a singular event, the college is intimating there's a pattern of deceptive behavior at play.
Whether the evidence supports that or not cannot be determined. The court could certainly rule that the college violated its own administrative procedures as the plaintiff alleges. That will be fairly easy for a lawyer to prove [if true].
The college's choice to try and collect the full sum of grants she was issued is interesting. It suggests they either think they have a really strong hand, or that they're staking a position to try and get what they actually want in settlement. Particularly since, if the student really was Pell eligible, there's probably no reason for them to think they would ever collect $70k plus back.
Not to mention that most of that money was never "real cash" anyway, it was just foregone revenue offset in the accounting.
The idea that she was never a student just because she may have lied on her applications is totally ridiculous. They can expel her like they have already done but how can they retroactively change her prior status? Maybe if a college is really in a financial bind, they can go dig up years of student applications, find out which ones have errors and demand payment for all the grants and scholarships.
Also if she was "never really a student" it's Cornell, not Choi, who misappropriated the funds and owes the Government the money. They took the money on her behalf and applied it to her tuition, after all.
It's not misappropriation under the regulations if Cornell applied the aid based on what they knew of her eligibility at the time. The fact that they're attempting to bill her back for those funds would indicate they are indeed following the requirement to return the funds if they identified after the fact that she was not eligible.
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They can expel her like they have already done but how can they retroactively change her prior status?
It's hard to say from what we know of this case, but there are many scenarios where this is quite possible. For example, if you had a program that had specific entrance requirements set by state licensure or accreditation standards, it is possible for a college to discover after the fact the student did not meet the program standards due to fraud or misrepresentation and was thus inadmissible.
That would be a potential explanation if she were enrolled in the state grant/Ag colleges at Cornell, in particular. The mystery isn't so much that this could happen, it's why Glendale transcripts would be the linchpin of the university's case.
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