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Did the schools actually administer the testing or did they just host the test? A lot of schools will keep students on track to get the tests, certificates, etc. that they need for a chosen career, but none of the schools we looked into actually administered the tests. The students still had to go out and sign up on a website, etc. to take the test.
I'm not really sure if they actually hosted the tests but by the time kids get to college they should be well able to do steps two and three once the school tells them about them. I know from my son's LinkedIn account that he gained several certifications in college. Just like career services puts out multiple e-mails about job opportunities, career fairs, etc. The kids have to prepare their resume, sign up, get dressed and go. Part of parenting is getting our kids to understand that process and responsibility. When my daughter was getting her teacher certs, none of that was done on her campus but somehow, without a car, she got to the testing place and took the tests. On her breaks at home, she took the PA tests.
I just finished up my degree in Public Policy and Administration with a concentration in local government. I learned a lot... but I ended up with none of the certifications that any of the supposedly "entry level" jobs that I'm looking into require. Just to make sure I wasn't barking up the wrong tree I had help from several faculty members who really believed in me and had them look over my resume, cover letters, and they gave me advice on where to apply.
What if, instead of being so theory based, we graduated college with certifications that employers are looking for for "entry level jobs?" I had a debate with my mom about this who thinks that college is more about classical study and expanding your mind. While I think there is some merit in that, at the end of the day you have to have some form of cash flow to get by, and a college degree has become like a highschool diploma back in the day.
I'm not the only one in this situation as many of my friends have been working free internships, applying for nearly 100 or more jobs. This is not a pity me thread, because I know things will turn out well and I'm not worried. This is more just thinking about the nature of college these days and whether or not it needs to be retooled. I feel like we are paying more than ever and getting less in return as a result.
I agree with you 100%. I feel that the entire US educational system (not just universities) need a complete overhaul from the ground up. American high schools teach way too much of this artsy fartsy stuff that is of little/no use to people. Yet, they completely overlook things that would be extremely helpful. In high school, I think they need to lay off the Shakespeare and start teaching more practical things like modern law, how to do your taxes, how to check a used car for defects, financial planning, etc. Instead of over-analyzing archaic cultural references in Shakespeare, I would have preferred to learn about my legal rights when I get pulled over, property distribution in a divorce case, and other things that I will use on a regular basis. Also, high schools need to stop trying to teach everyone about everything. I think that people should start specializing in areas where they have aptitude, as opposed to forcing math-challenged kids to keep taking math classes. People wonder why education ends up costing so much
In college, I really think that the psychology program was completely useless Instead of learning about classical literature, American history, art history, and all of the other garbage filler classes that did squat for me, I would have really benefited from an apprenticeship program built into the psychology curriculum starting in year 1. The internship/apprenticeship could be a part time job that is treated as 2-3 classes. I would have known much sooner that psychology wasn't for me had I been required to work at a mental institute as an undergraduate freshman and I'm sure other students would feel the same way. There is definitely a MASSIVE disconnect between the labor market and the educational system. It absolutely makes my blood BOIL when I hear higher education apologists/propagandists say how valuable those classes are when in reality they do SQUAT. Time and money are being wasted on this terribly inefficient system.
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Originally Posted by Pilgrim21784
They both accelerated (as had I - did undergraduate in 2.5 years, with a 40 plus hour a week job) and went to school year round. No student loans and they graduated with significant cash in the bank.
My advice to them at the get/go was - pick a field that you have an aptitude for and can excel at - personal like/dislike is only applicable if one is independently wealthy. They were not from a wealthy family; and fortunately followed my advice.
OK, but what if the things a person is good at are in very low demand in the labor market? When I was in HS and college, I truly excelled in history and political science. If I had majored in one of those, I could have graduated early from college. I don't think I could pull off a PhD in those areas, I KNOW I could pull off a PhD. That being said, I have no aptitude whatsoever for teaching, hence it would have been a pointless endeavor. What is your advice to people who face this problem?
Last edited by toobusytoday; 06-07-2015 at 01:28 PM..
Reason: removed offensive word, fixed typos
I agree with you 100%. I feel that the entire US educational system (not just universities) need a complete overhaul from the ground up....
No, the US employment system needs a complete overhaul from the ground up. Everything you are talking about belongs in the employment system, not the educational system. The more we make education into job training, the farther we fall behind other countries who are doing the exact opposite.
I'm not sure why they have to be mutually exclusive. After I graduated college, I entered an audio essay contest for a literary magazine. I was vey happy with my story, but the audio production was not good. In an English class, people could still write an essay analyzing a piece of literature but also extend that same piece into a multimedia project. The analysis wouldn't be any different, so there would be no compromise in academic rigor. If English majors want to be writers, they can learn search engine optimization in addition to their writing so that they can increase their profiles.
Another example could be an art major who wants to open an art gallery. A class could incorporate some business and marketing to help students with the practical matters of opening a gallery.
A liberal arts education should be broad. Shouldn't that include technical and practical skills? That would also help dispel the notion that the liberal arts majors are pure fluff.
I'm not sure why they have to be mutually exclusive. After I graduated college, I entered an audio essay contest for a literary magazine. I was vey happy with my story, but the audio production was not good. In an English class, people could still write an essay analyzing a piece of literature but also extend that same piece into a multimedia project. The analysis wouldn't be any different, so there would be no compromise in academic rigor. If English majors want to be writers, they can learn search engine optimization in addition to their writing so that they can increase their profiles.
Another example could be an art major who wants to open an art gallery. A class could incorporate some business and marketing to help students with the practical matters of opening a gallery.
A liberal arts education should be broad. Shouldn't that include technical and practical skills? That would also help dispel the notion that the liberal arts majors are pure fluff.
Agreed, keep the fluff and if possible why not have some technical and practical skill classes as part of the curriculum. In any case I do see some more technical classes offered then when I went to school so I have to believe that colleges are finding the balance between the fluff and technical. Granted they where electives and in no way required for the degree, but at least the option to take the classes where there.
No, the US employment system needs a complete overhaul from the ground up. Everything you are talking about belongs in the employment system, not the educational system. The more we make education into job training, the farther we fall behind other countries who are doing the exact opposite.
And since when is it the employer's job to teach you basic skills? Employers want you to have the basics under your belt and I think that's a reasonable expectation given how long people are in school these days. What countries are doing the exact opposite? In Western Europe, there are stronger ties between the labor market and the educational system. Let's use the psychology program I was in as an example. During my 4 years, I never learned about how to properly handle mentally ill people, government regulations or mental health organizational structures. On top of that, I was left with a degree that isn't enough to truly pursue any real mental health jobs (not that it matters in my case, because I don't even want to work in the field anymore). Also, I am still standing my ground that apprenticeship programs would be extremely useful in helping students gauge if they want to be in the field or not. I still fail to see how learning about art history is going to help you turn into anything useful if that's not your major. In my college english writing course, we were required the write an analysis/critique of Fight Club, the cult movie with Brad Pitt. What a joke! I'm sure that's totally going to help me get a job
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Originally Posted by greenmamba
A liberal arts education should be broad. Shouldn't that include technical and practical skills? That would also help dispel the notion that the liberal arts majors are pure fluff.
The practical skills portion of it is sorely lacking. That's the main issue. If there were apprenticeships directly built into year 1 of the higher education system, that would greatly improve the quality of education.
There is a huge difference between an education and job training. The two are very different things. Even in the STEM fields, such as engineering, a degree does not make you an engineer. It merely provides the core background for someone to start learning how to be an engineer in the real world.
Anyone who went to college thinking it was going to train them how to do a job is sadly mistaken. What it will do, which includes the fluff courses and even Shakespeare, is teach you how to be a thinking, contributing member of society.
As someone who teaches a subject that "doesn't do squat" (history), my response would be that if you want vocational education, go to a tech school or community college and study a trade. My classes will help you understand the past in its own context and force you to make complex information understandable to a lay audience. There are uses for the skills you learn in my classes but they are not, and were never meant to be, directly applicable to some job (other than teaching history and not even 100% applicable to that).
In fact when students come to me with this kind of attitude:
Quote:
In my college english writing course, we were required the write an analysis/critique of Fight Club, the cult movie with Brad Pitt. What a joke! I'm sure that's totally going to help me get a job
I ask them, "well why are you here?" If you want to make money, get a job - you can do that NOW - for example you could learn real estate law and become a broker in 6 months & start making money. You are wasting your time in my class learning about the Great Depression, etc... although learning about the housing crisis that was part of the Great Depression might help you, it will not do so directly.
These classes are not meant to be job training. They are meant to help people become more sophisticated, more civilized.
If money is what you want, college is not necessarily the ticket to it. It might be, it might not. If money and a job is what you want, I suggest you figure out how college will help you gain it. You may discover that it will not help you and you'd be better served by dropping out or avoiding college altogether and going straight into the job market. You may discover that college is the best vehicle for leveraging a good job in the near future. If so, you have to navigate the bureaucracy of the university meaning completing the elective portion of your degree requirement. That means doing as best as you possibly can on your Fight Club analysis, taking your grade and moving on. Sometimes in life we have to do things we don't like and that's good experience.
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I never learned about how to properly handle mentally ill people, government regulations or mental health organizational structures.
Well, did you choose to take classes in those subjects?
A bachelor's in psychology is going to familiarize you with the basic framework of the discipline and give you some hands on experience in some of the disciplinary skills - probably research methods. Learning how to "handle mentally ill people" sounds to me like an applied master's program.
Here is the program description for the undergraduate psychology program at the flagship university in my state. http://psychology.uoregon.edu/
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The mission of the Department of Psychology undergraduate program is to educate students about the major research findings and theories in the field of Psychology and to train them to use an empirical approach for understanding human behavior. Specifically, the program endeavors to provide students with
Broad exposure to the basic concepts, theories, findings, and ethical issues of psychology;
Education in the scientific method including hands-on research opportunities;
Strong critical thinking and written communication skills, including the ability to evaluate and convey the evidence for claims regarding human behavior; and
Applied experience through internship and practicum opportunities at partnering community organizations.
All students participate in and collaborate on research as part of the academic course sequence. Interested students are encouraged to gain additional research experience through research assistant positions in faculty labs and the undergraduate Honors thesis program. The psychology major affords students great flexibility in selecting upper-division courses to fit individual goals and interests. Classroom and hands-on opportunities are enriched by numerous faculty research programs that range in levels of analysis and intellectual focus. An undergraduate degree in psychology provides the background for a broad range of careers, including social services, education, law, or graduate programs in psychology.
Now then, I see these classes offered which might meet what you want:
420/520 Psychology and Law - a senior seminar/graduate class
366 Culture and Mental Health - junior level
607 Psychosis, Trauma, & Dissociation [Seminar] - a graduate class
The practical clinic is available for graduate students.
Programs to become a "mental health professional" (distinct from clinical psychologist which requires a PhD) are in separate graduate program under the medical school or school of education (counseling), apart from the academic psychology department.
So what you want seems to be available, but not at a low level like you would prefer. That would indicate to me that you did not fully understand the scope of the program you underwent.
Last edited by redguard57; 06-10-2015 at 08:18 PM..
As someone who teaches a subject that "doesn't do squat" (history), my response would be that if you want vocational education, go to a tech school or community college and study a trade. My classes will help you understand the past in its own context and force you to make complex information understandable to a lay audience. There are uses for the skills you learn in my classes but they are not, and were never meant to be, directly applicable to some job (other than teaching history and not even 100% applicable to that).
In fact when students come to me with this kind of attitude:
I ask them, "well why are you here?" If you want to make money, get a job - you can do that NOW - for example you could learn real estate law and become a broker in 6 months & start making money. You are wasting your time in my class learning about the Great Depression, etc... although learning about the housing crisis that was part of the Great Depression might help you, it will not do so directly.
These classes are not meant to be job training. They are meant to help people become more sophisticated, more civilized.
If money is what you want, college is not necessarily the ticket to it. It might be, it might not. If money and a job is what you want, I suggest you figure out how college will help you gain it. You may discover that it will not help you and you'd be better served by dropping out or avoiding college altogether and going straight into the job market. You may discover that college is the best vehicle for leveraging a good job in the near future. If so, you have to navigate the bureaucracy of the university meaning completing the elective portion of your degree requirement. That means doing as best as you possibly can on your Fight Club analysis, taking your grade and moving on. Sometimes in life we have to do things we don't like and that's good experience.
Well, did you choose to take classes in those subjects?
A bachelor's in psychology is going to familiarize you with the basic framework of the discipline and give you some hands on experience in some of the disciplinary skills - probably research methods. Learning how to "handle mentally ill people" sounds to me like an applied master's program.
Here is the program description for the undergraduate psychology program at the flagship university in my state. Department of Psychology
Now then, I see these classes offered which might meet what you want:
420/520 Psychology and Law - a senior seminar/graduate class
366 Culture and Mental Health - junior level
607 Psychosis, Trauma, & Dissociation [Seminar] - a graduate class
The practical clinic is available for graduate students.
Programs to become a "mental health professional" (distinct from clinical psychologist which requires a PhD) are in separate graduate program under the medical school or school of education (counseling), apart from the academic psychology department.
So what you want seems to be available, but not at a low level like you would prefer. That would indicate to me that you did not fully understand the scope of the program you underwent.
I agree with this, especially the psychology part. If you want more practical training in a related field, then major in addictions counseling or social work. Associate's programs in addictions/substance abuse/chemical dependency counseling are designed to meet licensing requirements. (Keep in mind that some states might require more than an associate's degree.) Toward the end of the program, you will go through a practicum. After that, you will go through a 2-year internship and will have to pass a licensing exam. If your state licenses social workers at the bachelor's level, then a BSW program will prepare you for that.
Psychiatric technicians have a lot in common with CNAs. Some hospitals even require or prefer psychiatric technicians to be CNAs. The training can be done on the job. Even when people go to school to become a CNA, the training only takes a couple of months. Practicums and internships often come toward the end of the program. I don't see how an internship toward the end of a psychology program could change much when it comes to helping you figure out if the field is right for you. You're already three or more years into the program. Anyone can take the initiative and apply for internships during summer breaks. A bachelor's degree in psychology provides the foundation for graduate school. A master's will get you licensed as a counselor or psychological associate. A PhD or PsyD will get you licensed as a psychologist. Complaining about a bachelor's in psychology not preparing you for the mental health field is like complaining about a BS in Health Science not preparing you to be a physician or physician assistant.
There is a huge difference between an education and job training. The two are very different things. Even in the STEM fields, such as engineering, a degree does not make you an engineer. It merely provides the core background for someone to start learning how to be an engineer in the real world.
Anyone who went to college thinking it was going to train them how to do a job is sadly mistaken. What it will do, which includes the fluff courses and even Shakespeare, is teach you how to be a thinking, contributing member of society.
In an engineering program, the math/science courses have a much more direct connection to one's career than the fluff courses in a psychology program. Analyzing paintings in art history class and writing about archaic literature has very little connection to the type of work one does after getting a psychology degree. None of those artsy fartsy skills are useful in a mental institute where you deal with dangerous clients or a social work job where you are bogged down with a ton of paperwork. I actually have seen some programs where they combine a bachelors and masters degree into 5 years. Now THAT is actually a solid idea, since it cuts down on useless classes and goes right to the chase.
@redguard57: Most students don't want to do the manual labor grunt work that you end up doing if you go to trade school. Most students want a professional level education, but one that cuts to the chase. The sheer number of nonsense elective fluff required by universities these days is the reason why many students are bored to tears and completely disconnected from the educational experience.
Yes, students can make money straight out of hs if they want. But the problem is that the job market for hs graduates is even poorer these days. You listed real estate as an example. I actually considered going into real estate. I spoke with a few agents and did my own research on the matter. It is extremely difficult to make it in that field and the fees are ridiculous.
The problem with completing fluff courses is not simply that most students don't want to do it. It's that they play a role in driving up the cost of education and they are a waste of time. Most students don't want to be in such classes AND they forget the information rather quickly. In hs, I was required to take 2 years of American history and I excelled at it. During my junior year, I took the AP European history exam and scored a 5 on the national exam. In college, I was required to take a rehash of American history for 1 semester. I could do circles around all of the other students because I was into it (even though it was all old information). What was the point of being in that classroom? The only thing I can think of that a liberal arts education is TRULY useful for is providing people with a foundation for academic research. However, there are way too many people being trained in the art of academic research (and who have no desire to learn it either).
At my university, I did not have the option of taking classes that focused on direct application as they were not offered at the school I went to. A 4.5 year program that combines the BS and MS into 1 should be the norm for psychology, not the exception. Universities really should focus on skipping through more of the fluff and teaching a student about the core of the program.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L210
Psychiatric technicians have a lot in common with CNAs. Some hospitals even require or prefer psychiatric technicians to be CNAs. The training can be done on the job. Even when people go to school to become a CNA, the training only takes a couple of months. Practicums and internships often come toward the end of the program. I don't see how an internship toward the end of a psychology program could change much when it comes to helping you figure out if the field is right for you. You're already three or more years into the program. Anyone can take the initiative and apply for internships during summer breaks. A bachelor's degree in psychology provides the foundation for graduate school. A master's will get you licensed as a counselor or psychological associate. A PhD or PsyD will get you licensed as a psychologist. Complaining about a bachelor's in psychology not preparing you for the mental health field is like complaining about a BS in Health Science not preparing you to be a physician or physician assistant.
I was a mental health technician (other name for a psychiatric tech). I make just under 12/hour. If a college degree lands you that type of work in the field, then it's a useless degree. There was very little room for advancement, since there were higher level techs at my old workplace who were there for years and were making marginally more than I was. What I'm proposing is that on the job experience should be part of the college program from SEMESTER 1. Like I said before, if I had the option to see what it was like to work in a mental health institute as a freshman, that would have been very helpful.
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