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Old 07-17-2015, 01:19 PM
 
25,556 posts, read 23,844,253 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanapolicRiddle View Post
My cumulative GPA was 3.51, so I did pretty well. Admittedly, psychology is one of the easiest majors with one of the highest GPAs but still...

But the point you make that so many liberal majors requiring a grad degree is exactly my point. Many undergrads in their late-teens/early 20s don't understand this because they've been misled to think any BA=good job. That's not necessarily the case. So for many a BA is just a slippery slope towards accumulating debt for more and more school. That path simply isn't for everyone.

Sorry, but your assertion that the vast majority of jobs with benefits and retirement require an advanced degree is a fallacy. Most of the skilled trades have excellent benefits, and many also have great retirement benefits.

I'm a public-sector employee. I work part-time, the pay is $31/hr, and I have excellent benefits, including a pension. I'm a transit operator, i.e. bus driver. I have more flexibility and better benefits than most people I know who work office jobs (I also like it more than office work). Did my BA help get me this job? NO. Yet the pay and benefits are better than most BAs doing mundane office work.

In retrospect I should have either done an apprenticeship for carpentry, or just skipped college altogether. Even though I did well in terms of GPA, every time I flush a toilet I think about all the time and money I spent getting an impractical degree. I feel like I wasted 4 years of life in college.
Licensed psychologists (they have PhDs) can both teach. They make a lot more than transit operators.

And you know that.

As for the kids in their teens and twenties if you are considering a career path you need to talk to people in the field to learn what is required to do that major.

The vast majority of jobs that pay really well do require advanced degrees. The people to get these jobs have families that can pay for these advanced degrees. That is the issue that you refuse to address. It all comes down to money.
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Old 07-17-2015, 05:49 PM
 
1,720 posts, read 1,296,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Licensed psychologists (they have PhDs) can both teach. They make a lot more than transit operators.

And you know that.

As for the kids in their teens and twenties if you are considering a career path you need to talk to people in the field to learn what is required to do that major.

The vast majority of jobs that pay really well do require advanced degrees. The people to get these jobs have families that can pay for these advanced degrees. That is the issue that you refuse to address. It all comes down to money.
Affordability was intended at least as an undercurrent of my argument. The problem is that many people -esp younger people- don't consider how much of a long-term hindrance college debt can be, esp when all they have is a BA.

If someone is fortunate enough to be of an affluent family who can afford to pay for grad school, that's one thing. But what about those who have to pay for or borrow for their education? Rather than going the BA/grad school route, most persons in this situation are better off getting practical education/training either by going to a 2-year vocational/professional program at community, getting a practical bachelors degree (nursing, engineering, computer science, etc.), or doing an apprenticeship.

Purely in terms of money, an RN, engineer, or computer engineer (4 yr degrees) make more money than the vast majority of teachers except tenured college profs. For most of the better teaching jobs (decent pay and benefits) there are far more applicants than there are positions. Someone can teach HS with an English MA, but good luck finding a full-time college-level teaching job.
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Old 07-18-2015, 02:39 PM
 
25,556 posts, read 23,844,253 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanapolicRiddle View Post
Affordability was intended at least as an undercurrent of my argument. The problem is that many people -esp younger people- don't consider how much of a long-term hindrance college debt can be, esp when all they have is a BA.

If someone is fortunate enough to be of an affluent family who can afford to pay for grad school, that's one thing. But what about those who have to pay for or borrow for their education? Rather than going the BA/grad school route, most persons in this situation are better off getting practical education/training either by going to a 2-year vocational/professional program at community, getting a practical bachelors degree (nursing, engineering, computer science, etc.), or doing an apprenticeship.

Purely in terms of money, an RN, engineer, or computer engineer (4 yr degrees) make more money than the vast majority of teachers except tenured college profs. For most of the better teaching jobs (decent pay and benefits) there are far more applicants than there are positions. Someone can teach HS with an English MA, but good luck finding a full-time college-level teaching job.
Obviously enough people do find a full time college-level teaching job. It's not just based on your phd, it's based on the quality of your post doctoral work. You have to have published work that's well regarded by academia. It does happen.

As for whether poor people should take out student loans or go out for vocational jobs, not every poor person WANTS to be a NURSE or an ENGINEER.

Also in order to be an engineer, you must like math. If you don't passing those classes would be extremely hard, not to mention sustaining a career in them.

The other thing to think about is not all schools are equal.

Top private universities tend to disproportionately be full of wealthy kids, but you'll have poor kids there who get plenty of financial aid. Second and third tier private universities tend to have students who take out lots of student loans. So you have the expenses of an elite school but not the job prospects.

Lastly people who work for the government, education, or non profits have whatever student loans they have not paid off discharged in 10 years. So students should keep that in mind.

Saying that all poor students need to have the same few jobs (nurse or computer science) is totally ridiculous. Students from all backgrounds do need to research their career paths (find out how much education is needed to be in a field, which universities have worthwhile departments in that field, go over the job prospects in that field, etc.)
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Old 07-19-2015, 10:53 AM
 
1,720 posts, read 1,296,289 times
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Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Saying that all poor students need to have the same few jobs (nurse or computer science) is totally ridiculous. Students from all backgrounds do need to research their career paths (find out how much education is needed to be in a field, which universities have worthwhile departments in that field, go over the job prospects in that field, etc.)
I agree, but the reality is many young college students (18-24) just don't have that kind of foresight or planning. Many casually operate with the assumption 'I'll just get a degree in whatever, then find a good job', when that's simply not the case.

This certainly isn't the case with all younger students, but with many. When I attended college I saw many students similar to myself; even though we didn't want to go to college, we went because of some vague notion that it was necessary when it isn't.

While it's probably not as much the case as it used to be, many young adults are pressured by their family, social-circle, etc, to attend college when in fact college isn't for everyone, and there's nothing wrong with that. People who don't go to college aren't inherently inferior to those who do; it's just not for them. Some of us just don't enjoy school that much and would rather just start working a 'real job' earlier in life rather than spend 4+ more years in a classroom.
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Old 07-19-2015, 12:09 PM
 
Location: Southeast U.S
850 posts, read 898,020 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanapolicRiddle View Post
I agree, but the reality is many young college students (18-24) just don't have that kind of foresight or planning. Many casually operate with the assumption 'I'll just get a degree in whatever, then find a good job', when that's simply not the case.

This certainly isn't the case with all younger students, but with many. When I attended college I saw many students similar to myself; even though we didn't want to go to college, we went because of some vague notion that it was necessary when it isn't.

While it's probably not as much the case as it used to be, many young adults are pressured by their family, social-circle, etc, to attend college when in fact college isn't for everyone, and there's nothing wrong with that. People who don't go to college aren't inherently inferior to those who do; it's just not for them. Some of us just don't enjoy school that much and would rather just start working a 'real job' earlier in life rather than spend 4+ more years in a classroom.
I agree. High school teachers have been drilling in every high school students head they need a degree to achieve a comfortable lifestyle. Teachers are only telling one part of the story, the other part is you have to be highly ambitious and have strong communication skills to successfully land a good paying job with a college degree. In my honest opinion, teachers should not be advising high school students that graduate with less than a 3.0 GPA or less than a 1500 out of 2400 SAT score to go to college. They should be advising those students to go into the military, trade school, or get a CDL. My brother struggled in high school and did not do well on his SATs so common sense told him college was not for him. He joined the military and stayed for two years then got recruited by the local police department to train in the local police academy. He has been a police officer for two years and he makes decent money and loves his job. He knew he would of struggled in college and probably would of ended up being underemployed in some crappy retail job if he would of went to college. I believe that not everyone should go to college if they didn't do great in high school. Underachievers in high school are actually setting themselves up for failure by going to college because most of them are going end up do something they don't like and hate their jobs with a passion. Not everyone wants to be that person who works in a cubicle in a 9 to 5 job fighting rush hour traffic every morning. Some have dreams and goals outside of going to college and there is nothing wrong with that. Our society has brain washed everyone into thinking they are going to be a low life bum if they don't earn a college degree and I think that is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. We are always going to need blue collar workers and there are a lot of people that are happy being a welder, electrician, truck driver, fork lift driver, police officer, auto mechanic, public transit operator/bus driver and they all make a decent living.
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Old 07-19-2015, 12:57 PM
 
25,556 posts, read 23,844,253 times
Reputation: 10119
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanapolicRiddle View Post
I agree, but the reality is many young college students (18-24) just don't have that kind of foresight or planning. Many casually operate with the assumption 'I'll just get a degree in whatever, then find a good job', when that's simply not the case.

This certainly isn't the case with all younger students, but with many. When I attended college I saw many students similar to myself; even though we didn't want to go to college, we went because of some vague notion that it was necessary when it isn't.

While it's probably not as much the case as it used to be, many young adults are pressured by their family, social-circle, etc, to attend college when in fact college isn't for everyone, and there's nothing wrong with that. People who don't go to college aren't inherently inferior to those who do; it's just not for them. Some of us just don't enjoy school that much and would rather just start working a 'real job' earlier in life rather than spend 4+ more years in a classroom.
There's completely nothing wrong with that and as most adults don't have a bachelors you can extend that to most people.

Between 25%-30% of US adults have bachelors.
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Old 07-19-2015, 01:17 PM
 
25,556 posts, read 23,844,253 times
Reputation: 10119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Chemist View Post
I agree. High school teachers have been drilling in every high school students head they need a degree to achieve a comfortable lifestyle. Teachers are only telling one part of the story, the other part is you have to be highly ambitious and have strong communication skills to successfully land a good paying job with a college degree. In my honest opinion, teachers should not be advising high school students that graduate with less than a 3.0 GPA or less than a 1500 out of 2400 SAT score to go to college. They should be advising those students to go into the military, trade school, or get a CDL. My brother struggled in high school and did not do well on his SATs so common sense told him college was not for him. He joined the military and stayed for two years then got recruited by the local police department to train in the local police academy. He has been a police officer for two years and he makes decent money and loves his job. He knew he would of struggled in college and probably would of ended up being underemployed in some crappy retail job if he would of went to college. I believe that not everyone should go to college if they didn't do great in high school. Underachievers in high school are actually setting themselves up for failure by going to college because most of them are going end up do something they don't like and hate their jobs with a passion. Not everyone wants to be that person who works in a cubicle in a 9 to 5 job fighting rush hour traffic every morning. Some have dreams and goals outside of going to college and there is nothing wrong with that. Our society has brain washed everyone into thinking they are going to be a low life bum if they don't earn a college degree and I think that is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. We are always going to need blue collar workers and there are a lot of people that are happy being a welder, electrician, truck driver, fork lift driver, police officer, auto mechanic, public transit operator/bus driver and they all make a decent living.
You cannot use the example of one person. A person could have 4.0 and for whatever reason not go to college. Another person maybe was a slacker in high school, but that person could end up doing well in college.

I do agree not everyone is going to be good at studying and there are plenty of people who just don't like to study. So if you know you don't like to do something, just admit the kind of person you are.
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Old 07-19-2015, 02:03 PM
 
1,720 posts, read 1,296,289 times
Reputation: 1134
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
There's completely nothing wrong with that and as most adults don't have a bachelors you can extend that to most people.

Between 25%-30% of US adults have bachelors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
You cannot use the example of one person. A person could have 4.0 and for whatever reason not go to college. Another person maybe was a slacker in high school, but that person could end up doing well in college.

I do agree not everyone is going to be good at studying and there are plenty of people who just don't like to study. So if you know you don't like to do something, just admit the kind of person you are.
LOL! So in a sense we've been arguing about nothing!

I guess here's what most younger persons who are mulling their options should take out of this: Have some sort of plan, and sense of what you want when considering your educational options. If you're highly motivated to be an engineer, computer programmer, lawyer, etc, and know this is what you want, then yes, college/grad school is a necessity. If you aren't sure what you want, it's OK to postpone college, or forgo it entirely in favor of two-year vocational education, or simply going to work.

Wow! So such a long discussion, and we're closer in agreement than we thought. Here's a good video related to this topic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls1YhhMHdNY
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Old 07-19-2015, 02:08 PM
 
1,834 posts, read 2,683,827 times
Reputation: 2675
There is a significant degree of fraud associated with educational entities including major universities and also the government advising the public regarding education in general. That is why so many cannot earn enough income to easily repay student debts, etc. Today a person must do their own research and field work to find a good match and a good educational investment.
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Old 07-19-2015, 08:21 PM
 
Location: Southeast U.S
850 posts, read 898,020 times
Reputation: 1007
Quote:
Originally Posted by mortpes View Post
There is a significant degree of fraud associated with educational entities including major universities and also the government advising the public regarding education in general. That is why so many cannot earn enough income to easily repay student debts, etc. Today a person must do their own research and field work to find a good match and a good educational investment.
This is so true. You have to do some extensive research of your field and also know how much demand is in that field. Here in Atlanta the economy is not the best, the unemployment rate is close to 9% so it's still tough on job seekers here. I always thought accounting was in high demand but I am seeing that accounting majors that just graduated are fighting for $18-20 an hour temp accounting jobs. It's a shame! Even entry level engineers are being low balled in their salaries because of the intense competition in that field. My profession as a chemist, if you just graduated with minimum work experience you will be lucky to land a job that pays $15-20 an hour through a temp service in the Atlanta area and you be commuting a good way from your house to get to that job. I think the three main things college students should research are demand in their field, desired salary, and the location where these jobs have the biggest opportunities. Location is everything but not everyone can move cross country for job as some may be stuck in the middle of a lease or don't have the money to move as most entry level jobs don't pay relocation exspenses.
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