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Surprising that with 6 pages of responses nobody came up with a few different alternatives:
1) Exams for credit. Most schools will except CLEP, DANTES and other options as ways of earning college credit through standardized exams. Even 6 credit hours for that CLEP Analyzing and Interpreting Literature exam (which can probably be studied for in a short amount of time if one is literate) is 5% of a degree for around $100-$150. Some schools accept far more credit. One of the ultimate examples is using one of the CLEP language exams - some colleges will grant 2 years of Spanish, German or French based upon a high score. That translates to 12 credit hours for that same $100-$150.
2) Taking the #1 example further and getting a degree from one of the "Big 3" credit accumulator colleges. Excelsior College, Charter Oak State College and Thomas Edison State College allow nearly unlimited transfer and exam credit. Until around 10 years ago it was literally unlimited, and the enterprising student who was a good test-taker could complete 120 credit hours in under a year for around $5000 out of pocket.
For #2, does it give you a "name brand" degree? Absolutely not, but it is regionally accredited. It WILL make you eligible for a great graduate degree program if you combine that with a great GRE/GMAT/etc. score.
The average 18 year old really benefits from the full college experience. But for someone who perhaps didn't get a degree early on, or dropped out and needs 30 credit hours to finish, these "Big 3" colleges are great value.
I completed my bachelor's at TESC and went on to get a master's and am well into a PhD program at traditional universities. However, many on this forum are opposed to alternative forms of higher education. Also, for someone who doesn't see the value in general education courses, testing out of them will still seem like a waste of time and money.
I completed my bachelor's at TESC and went on to get a master's and am well into a PhD program at traditional universities. However, many on this forum are opposed to alternative forms of higher education. Also, for someone who doesn't see the value in general education courses, testing out of them will still seem like a waste of time and money.
You and I had a similar experience. I don't understand why more people don't take advantage of exams for credit especially if they are planning to take on $100K+ of student loan debt and they have no clear career path defined.
Every time I read an article about someone who got a degree in basket weaving from NYU, incurred $150K in debt and is working as a barista at Starbucks I cringe. The answer here isn't student loan forgiveness.
You and I had a similar experience. I don't understand why more people don't take advantage of exams for credit especially if they are planning to take on $100K+ of student loan debt and they have no clear career path defined.
Every time I read an article about someone who got a degree in basket weaving from NYU, incurred $150K in debt and is working as a barista at Starbucks I cringe. The answer here isn't student loan forgiveness.
I'm a good test taker but even I may have trouble in these situations depending on the subject. I can only fear the money wasted by the garden variety student who actually dreaded tests that I saw during my time at school.
Colleges are not supposed to be trade schools. Or at least that wasn't the case historically. You take a well rounded assortment of classes and you're supposed to become "educated." Is that really necessary? Of course not, at least not as to any particular subject matter. For example, I can't remember the last time I had to know anything much about Chaucer, and yet I took an entire course about him and read his works in the old English. And no one has ever asked my anything relating to the history of the French revolution and Napoleon, and yet I also took that class.
So, college is a place to play around for four years and maybe you learn a little bit. Maybe you learn to write. Of course, people with STEM majors will have a different viewpoint.
I do think this is what it comes down to. It is just a bum deal with skyrocketing tuition costs, you are forced to take (and pay for) a course you will never use.
At what university is a course in Western Civilization a core course in engineering?
I'm a good test taker but even I may have trouble in these situations depending on the subject. I can only fear the money wasted by the garden variety student who actually dreaded tests that I saw during my time at school.
If you're a good test taker there are tons of CLEP and DANTES exams that can be easily passed and credit obtained as long as the college allows it.
There are also plenty of online and other resources available to study for the test. This goes beyond the philosophical argument that college courses should be about education and not just obtaining credit, but some sites out there help you cram effectively. A good test taker could take CLEP Analyzing and Interpreting Literature and pass after a week's study for 6 credits. These are computer-based, multiple-choice tests. Here is the synopsis:
"The examination emphasizes comprehension, interpretation, and analysis of literary works. A specific knowledge of historical context (authors and movements) is not required, but a broad knowledge of literature gained through reading widely and a familiarity with basic literary terminology is assumed. The following outline indicates the relative emphasis given to the various types of literature and the periods from which the passages are taken. The approximate percentage of exam questions per classification is noted within each main category."
Sounds hard? It's not if you can do the prep work and took English in high school.
Also, anyone with strong second language ability (Spanish, German, French) should run, not walk and take the CLEP language exam. Spanish is the hardest to get a high score on (as there are a lot of Spanish speakers) but someone with high school French or German should get 3, 6 or even 12 credits - again, if their school grants it.
My opinion is that any student facing significant student loans and whose school allows CLEP/DANTES credit doesn't take advantage of these exams to fill elective credit is foolish.
If you're a good test taker there are tons of CLEP and DANTES exams that can be easily passed and credit obtained as long as the college allows it.
There are also plenty of online and other resources available to study for the test. This goes beyond the philosophical argument that college courses should be about education and not just obtaining credit, but some sites out there help you cram effectively. A good test taker could take CLEP Analyzing and Interpreting Literature and pass after a week's study for 6 credits. These are computer-based, multiple-choice tests. Here is the synopsis:
"The examination emphasizes comprehension, interpretation, and analysis of literary works. A specific knowledge of historical context (authors and movements) is not required, but a broad knowledge of literature gained through reading widely and a familiarity with basic literary terminology is assumed. The following outline indicates the relative emphasis given to the various types of literature and the periods from which the passages are taken. The approximate percentage of exam questions per classification is noted within each main category."
Sounds hard? It's not if you can do the prep work and took English in high school.
Also, anyone with strong second language ability (Spanish, German, French) should run, not walk and take the CLEP language exam. Spanish is the hardest to get a high score on (as there are a lot of Spanish speakers) but someone with high school French or German should get 3, 6 or even 12 credits - again, if their school grants it.
My opinion is that any student facing significant student loans and whose school allows CLEP/DANTES credit doesn't take advantage of these exams to fill elective credit is foolish.
Skirting the issue I see. It's not about language ability, it is the prep work and the ability to take tests. As I said a large number of students whether it was community college or university level HATED studying and taking tests. This solution does nothing for them other than be a potential money pit. For community college it can at best be half the cost of the semester worth of courses for my area. Universities are a bit more expensive.
The test studying may give you that the point of Dr. Jeckyll & Mr. Hyde is duality but the course will cement this and open up other view points. I could have done the work for a philosophy course I took junior year BUT I was actually able to do much better with the course. It wasn't the concepts that was the issue, it's having the different viewpoints on virtu/pluralistic morals, divine command theory, Kantism, etc. The multiple choice tests would just be more white noise learning where you forget things just because of the information dump. Don't get me wrong, I was a GREAT info dump student but many aren't.
The course listed don't sound hard to me, to others though, it likely does even with the high school English. I knew enough high school students and college students to know reality.
The other thing is use. You mention the CLEP language exams. I took French in middle and high school. I don't remember much of it. Why is that, because I didn't use it after. I may take the French CLEP but I wouldn't actually use it nor master it. It's just simply says I know it.
Side question: Three years degrees are the norm in the UK. Are UK students learning less material or are they cramming more into three versus someone taking a comparable four year program in the USA or Canada?
It's not that they cram too much in, it's that they cover the equivalent of the first year in an American college while in high school. Or, they can take additional classes to meet this requirement before applying to college. This ensures you are college ready. And, traditionally, this has made university in the UK more the domain of the higher achieving students compared to the US. In the US, there is pretty much a college (not technical school) for any young person who wants a degree.
The UK has traditionally had many paths to earning a degree - unlike America. A popular model there was the work-school program (can't remember the exact name). Lets say a young person wants to become an engineer. They would get hired as an apprentice for an Engineering company who would essentially sponsor them by paying them for f/t work while allowing them to attend college classes one full day per week. After a certain # of years they earned their degree, gained experience and then became full-fledged engineers. The model I was on in HS (many yrs. ago), was one where, at the age of 14, I entered a 2 yr. college track program. The closest, but not the same, is the American equivalent is the AP or IB program. In order to obtain college credits for my work, I had to achieve scores that were called "A Levels". There were "O Levels" too. This also counted for college credits at certain schools. I graduated at age 16 with "O" and "A" level college credits. Kid not in this program graduated at age 15. In recent years they bumped up the age to 16 for the basic education track and 18 for college bound kids.
Skirting the issue I see. It's not about language ability, it is the prep work and the ability to take tests. As I said a large number of students whether it was community college or university level HATED studying and taking tests. This solution does nothing for them other than be a potential money pit. For community college it can at best be half the cost of the semester worth of courses for my area. Universities are a bit more expensive.
The test studying may give you that the point of Dr. Jeckyll & Mr. Hyde is duality but the course will cement this and open up other view points. I could have done the work for a philosophy course I took junior year BUT I was actually able to do much better with the course. It wasn't the concepts that was the issue, it's having the different viewpoints on virtu/pluralistic morals, divine command theory, Kantism, etc. The multiple choice tests would just be more white noise learning where you forget things just because of the information dump. Don't get me wrong, I was a GREAT info dump student but many aren't.
The course listed don't sound hard to me, to others though, it likely does even with the high school English. I knew enough high school students and college students to know reality.
The other thing is use. You mention the CLEP language exams. I took French in middle and high school. I don't remember much of it. Why is that, because I didn't use it after. I may take the French CLEP but I wouldn't actually use it nor master it. It's just simply says I know it.
How is it "skirting the issue" if the first words I said were "If you're a good test taker"?
Second, in a previous post I said "The average 18 year old really benefits from the full college experience. But for someone who perhaps didn't get a degree early on, or dropped out and needs 30 credit hours to finish, these "Big 3" colleges are great value."
Why did I say this? Because the average 18 year old college student, unless they are extremely well-read won't be able to do a quick cram and pass any meaningful course without getting lucky with their mouse clicks.
You mention philosophy. That's generally a course that promotes a lot of in-class discussion. It was also junior year (don't know if it was a lower-level or upper-level course). CLEPs are all lower level. Most are introductory survey courses (i.e. "Introduction to..." or "Principles of...").
Let's take someone who is in their late 20's and who has been a manager in the workforce for a number of years. With minimal study they already have the knowledge to pass Principles of Management, DANTES Principles of Supervision or a few of the other CLEPs. Why should they have to take it in a classroom? Again, tests demonstrate prior knowledge. It's unlikely someone could just show up and pass.
As for language skill, it totally is about just that. Many International Business degrees require a second language. Imagine someone who either speaks a second language at home, did intensive study or is an immigrant to the US. They have the language ability. Why shouldn't they just be able to test out of it as they can demonstrate the knowledge? The CLEP language exams are different in that you wear headphones and listen to phrases taken from real-world situations like news, travel reports, etc. and then have to select the right answer. To get the full score you have to really understand at least conversation-level French, Spanish or German. This is not "pick which word means apple". It's doubtful you would pass CLEP French. I took it (and got full credit) because of 4 years of intensive study (all my classes were in French), not just the basics. That's why this is appealing to people who learn a second language at home or who are immigrants where that language is their first language. Slam dunk for them.
I do agree that this approach isn't for everyone, especially if they are a poor test taker. In that case a classroom approach is probably the best and only option. But these people should also realize that if they need to take the GMAT, LSAT, MCAT, etc. that they're in for a similar experience. Not surprisingly there are a lot of resources out there on "how to ace the xxxx exam" because people aren't comfortable with taking computer-based tests. I can only speak for the GMAT but that one is computer-adaptive. Get the first couple answers wrong and you will never get a 700+ score out of 800. Before I took it I used an online resource that used similar example exams (with the adaptive behavior) so I could get comfortable. My practice test scores were surprisingly in line with my overall GMAT score.
I'm also a big fan of community college as a way to gain classroom experience at a lower price point. Ironically, many CLEP and DANTES exams are held at community colleges who actually promote these exams for their students. Same goes for the military, who usually hosts these tests on-base for free for active duty military personnel.
However, to deny the utility of exams for credit for the right situation is honestly not doing students a service. Many people could be saving thousands of dollars in tuition bills. When you mention "a potential money pit" the money risked for a CLEP exam is minimal, probably $150 all in. While not too far off from the cost of a community college course, I can think of a couple of examples where it is really useful because of the time saved.
Many MBA programs require a certain distribution of courses to be taken as a "foundation", or they have to be taken prior to fully enrolling in the program. Many of these same programs will accept CLEP/DANTES scores as proof of knowledge. Is it better to push off the program for 6-12 months to take a bunch of college courses, which are often not offered on an open-enrollment basis, or do some intensive study, take an exam and then know right away - as soon as you're done - if you met the standard or not? The worst that will happen is that the student then needs to take the course. Low risk, potentially high reward.
One final point, and this is a controversial one for education and the approach that the Obama Administration is taking. The President believes that everyone should have the opportunity to afford college, and to get a degree because that's the best way to ensure a good job and success in the future.
The problem is that while studying Kant is useful from a personal perspective (I once took Greek and Roman Architecture as an elective) it directly does very little for the average student. Sure, it may make them think more critically, be more well-balanced, and so on, but it won't help them necessarily learn things that would be useful on the job. College is definitely not a trade, but if someone wants to finish up a degree quickly, not necessarily because it will make them more well-rounded but because the job application says "4 year degree required" even though it really isn't, then test taking and a TESC/COSC/Excelsior degree is very valuable.
Last edited by markjames68; 09-21-2015 at 04:59 PM..
When you're older, you'll understand how much you actually learned in those "useless" g.e. classes. Maybe they don't make you better at a specific job (nor do a lot of major classes), but they make you a better human.
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