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I don't agree with this idea, but I think the problems with our higher education system go much deeper.
1) College (the traditional bachelor's degree) was never meant to be vocational school. Historically it was used as an indicator of social class, but it also served a mission of preparing students for academia, the degreed professions (medicine, law etc), and leadership roles in government, business, the arts, etc. As such, it's primarily geared to developing critical thinking skills, writing skills, and building social networks that will serve students well in those capacities in the future.
2) College is wildly inefficient in the role of a vocational school. It's an overly long and overly expensive way to prepare future nurses, clerks, secretaries, salespeople, teachers, police, office workers, etc. These jobs (and the people who seek these careers) would benefit much more from shorter, two year blended degree and apprenticeship models giving real work experience and earlier earnings. Less debt, more years of experience and time in the workforce. We also need more adult training centers for other employement skills required as technology changes so people can re-tool their skills over time.
3) Unfortunately, in our country we've culturally stigmatized trade schools, vocational training, apprenticeships etc. Many students are effectively forced to go to college just to have any chance at getting hired for jobs that don't even require the degree if you actually look at what the job duties are. This has resulted in a flood of bachelor's degrees, and people who hold them working in jobs on which their education (and the monetary + time + effort investment it represents) is wasted.
4) I wouldn't want to see our liberal arts programs gutted-I'd rather see alot of the resources that go to propping up this system channeled into more vocational/technical/apprenticeship training programs that get young high school grads who just want a job working faster, building skills faster, and focusing on their goals. We need fewer undergraduate schools in this country, and each one should have pretty rigorous standards of admission so that the degree actually carries weight on its own, no matter which school it comes from.
5) High school is the place for remedial education, not college. When people graduate high school, and enroll in a four year program unable to do algebra, in my opinion it's a ridiculous waste of resources to saddle them with a year of debt just to learn those basics. The money saved on subsidizing student loans there can be invested in local high schools to provide the resources necessary to help these students develop the skills required. An accreditedhigh school diploma in this country should be all that's required to serve as a reliable indicator that this graduate can read, write, do basic math, and has a basic understanding of science, history, and government.
I disagree that nurses and teachers would benefit from two year degrees. And this is someone who is a teacher.
A teacher with an associates who does an apprentice ship is mostly going to be teaching from the textbook. Students can pick out when this happens (it's obvious when the teacher is dumb) and you lose the classroom right there.
Many teachers today have had other careers besides teaching (teachers of k-12 ultimately get masters degrees) and such do not have to depend on teaching by the textbook.
Nurses today have a number of duties, and those who are nurse practitioners can even do many of the duties of doctors.
I disagree that nurses and teachers would benefit from two year degrees. And this is someone who is a teacher.
A teacher with an associates who does an apprentice ship is mostly going to be teaching from the textbook. Students can pick out when this happens (it's obvious when the teacher is dumb) and you lose the classroom right there.
Many teachers today have had other careers besides teaching (teachers of k-12 ultimately get masters degrees) and such do not have to depend on teaching by the textbook.
Nurses today have a number of duties, and those who are nurse practitioners can even do many of the duties of doctors.
I think you're probably right about those two fields in particular. However, there are doubtless many fields out there where a two-year degree is really all you need, yet they are filled with people who have four year degrees. These people could have two years more of earnings/savings and two years less of debt, and I think that our society would be better off on the whole if we supported these kinds of opportunities more and build up our system of community/technical/vocational education. (and also worked to de-stigmatize it in the minds of parents, guidance counselors, employers etc)
I think state subsidies are distorting the markets. Of course there is a demand for people with liberal arts degrees. I think the problem is far more people pursue liberal arts degrees than there is a market for.
A lot of liberal arts majors don't have a clear plan on what to do. And the thing is you can't do much with a liberal arts BA (well there are exceptions). General people who use their liberal arts education get phds, or masters and teach or go into academia, or they decide to go to law school or MBA school. If you live in a major city you can go into banking, film/tv/media or a few other fields.
But the vast majority of state school graduates with liberal arts degrees are not going to be able to do those things.
Of course the dropping of state funding for these programs at state schools will temporarily make the job markets for those fields worse as they are going to have to lay off people. But eventually the markets will stabilize.
Agreed. I was a political science and history major for a number of years, and really wanted to go to graduate school. None of the information I learned in those courses was applicable in the job market. I had quite a few classes on the historical Jesus, early Christianity, and various religion courses in the history field. I picked up a lot of skills in those classes - analytical, writing, a well-rounded view of the world, but those are basically implicit in today's job market.
Per the last Fed report 27% of outstanding student loans are in default.
That's 27% of $1.2 trillion.
It does not matter if 27% of student loans are in default. All that matters is if the government is collecting enough in interest to make up for the money it's not collecting. But, loans going into default does not mean that the money will never be collected. People can get back on track with making payments, and the government can take away your tax returns.
I don't agree with this idea, but I think the problems with our higher education system go much deeper.
1) College (the traditional bachelor's degree) was never meant to be vocational school. Historically it was used as an indicator of social class, but it also served a mission of preparing students for academia, the degreed professions (medicine, law etc), and leadership roles in government, business, the arts, etc. As such, it's primarily geared to developing critical thinking skills, writing skills, and building social networks that will serve students well in those capacities in the future.
2) College is wildly inefficient in the role of a vocational school. It's an overly long and overly expensive way to prepare future nurses, clerks, secretaries, salespeople, teachers, police, office workers, etc. These jobs (and the people who seek these careers) would benefit much more from shorter, two year blended degree and apprenticeship models giving real work experience and earlier earnings. Less debt, more years of experience and time in the workforce. We also need more adult training centers for other employement skills required as technology changes so people can re-tool their skills over time.
3) Unfortunately, in our country we've culturally stigmatized trade schools, vocational training, apprenticeships etc. Many students are effectively forced to go to college just to have any chance at getting hired for jobs that don't even require the degree if you actually look at what the job duties are. This has resulted in a flood of bachelor's degrees, and people who hold them working in jobs on which their education (and the monetary + time + effort investment it represents) is wasted.
4) I wouldn't want to see our liberal arts programs gutted-I'd rather see alot of the resources that go to propping up this system channeled into more vocational/technical/apprenticeship training programs that get young high school grads who just want a job working faster, building skills faster, and focusing on their goals. We need fewer undergraduate schools in this country, and each one should have pretty rigorous standards of admission so that the degree actually carries weight on its own, no matter which school it comes from.
5) High school is the place for remedial education, not college. When people graduate high school, and enroll in a four year program unable to do algebra, in my opinion it's a ridiculous waste of resources to saddle them with a year of debt just to learn those basics. The money saved on subsidizing student loans there can be invested in local high schools to provide the resources necessary to help these students develop the skills required. An accreditedhigh school diploma in this country should be all that's required to serve as a reliable indicator that this graduate can read, write, do basic math, and has a basic understanding of science, history, and government.
Only 1% of police departments require a bachelor's degree. Most of them don't even require an associate's degree. When the small minority of police departments require a 4-year degree, it's not for training purposes. You get your training from the academy and field training. The degree can usually be in anything if it's required. They just use it as a way to filter out people. The overall results are inconclusive, but some studies have found that police officers with a 4-year degree are disciplined less and take a different, more positive approach to policing.
You also don't need a 4-year degree to become a nurse. Some employers might require a BSN, but it's not a requirement to become licensed. Secretaries and clerks usually don't need anything beyond a high school diploma or associate's degree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude
I disagree that nurses and teachers would benefit from two year degrees. And this is someone who is a teacher.
A teacher with an associates who does an apprentice ship is mostly going to be teaching from the textbook. Students can pick out when this happens (it's obvious when the teacher is dumb) and you lose the classroom right there.
Many teachers today have had other careers besides teaching (teachers of k-12 ultimately get masters degrees) and such do not have to depend on teaching by the textbook.
Nurses today have a number of duties, and those who are nurse practitioners can even do many of the duties of doctors.
Obviously, nurses and nurse practitioners are two different occupations. Nurse practitioners need a master's degree and can practice independently, so that shouldn't be used as an argument for why nurses, who can't practice independently as primary care providers, should have more education. I'm not saying that they don't need a bachelor's degree to be most effective; I'm just saying that what nurse practitioners do is irrelevant.
Only 1% of police departments require a bachelor's degree. Most of them don't even require an associate's degree. When the small minority of police departments require a 4-year degree, it's not for training purposes. You get your training from the academy and field training. The degree can usually be in anything if it's required. They just use it as a way to filter out people. The overall results are inconclusive, but some studies have found that police officers with a 4-year degree are disciplined less and take a different, more positive approach to policing.
You also don't need a 4-year degree to become a nurse. Some employers might require a BSN, but it's not a requirement to become licensed. Secretaries and clerks usually don't need anything beyond a high school diploma or associate's degree.
Obviously, nurses and nurse practitioners are two different occupations. Nurse practitioners need a master's degree and can practice independently, so that shouldn't be used as an argument for why nurses, who can't practice independently as primary care providers, should have more education. I'm not saying that they don't need a bachelor's degree to be most effective; I'm just saying that what nurse practitioners do is irrelevant.
LPN's are nurses with associates degrees. RN's have bachelor degrees. There's often a difference between the duties of the two. To get a RN license you must have a bachelor's DEGREE.
As far as the secretarial/clerical jobs, agreed. All they generally need is a high school diploma or associates degree.
It does not matter if 27% of student loans are in default. All that matters is if the government is collecting enough in interest to make up for the money it's not collecting. But, loans going into default does not mean that the money will never be collected. People can get back on track with making payments, and the government can take away your tax returns.
The government can garnish wages and other income (I recall reading about a man who got his disability garnished), and they can even seize assets including funds in the bank account.
Agreed that in the majority of cases those student loans are ultimately paid back. The only way to get them discharged is to become permanently disabled.
Student loans have to be paid back. Currently, the government is making money off of student loan interest, and the loans can't be discharged in bankruptcy. It has actually become less common for students to major in music, and some universities have been cutting their humanities programs due to poor job prospects.
The government makes money from a high-interest, undischargeable loan for a course sold to a student that is useless to that student. Hmm. Government counselors, government universities, government programs, and high-interest government loans that can't be discharged in bankruptcy...round and round. Sounds like organized crime to me.
Last edited by Ralph_Kirk; 02-24-2016 at 10:56 PM..
That's the problem though. You went and got a JD, and that is one path for those with liberal arts degrees. But you cannot use liberal arts degrees as a terminal degree. In that sense it's a waste of time for many students who don't intend to go further in the field to obtain a liberal arts degree.
Yes, something I've been telling kids for a while. What they get from their counselors is only, "Get a degree, any degree."
But the truth is, indeed, life will be rough for someone expecting most liberal arts masters degrees to pay off vocationally.
My wife has started mentoring a young woman who was graduated two years ago with a bachelor's degree in "Innovative Entrepreneurial Management." She's been two years without full employment, currently answering phones part time for an insurance company that won't give her a full-time job can carrying $50,000 in student loan debt.
What the heck is "Innovative Entrepreneurial Management" supposed to be? At best, it should have been a small business community college curriculum. It was sold to her by her counselors as something all big companies would want to hire, but certainly those people had no idea what companies were really hiring. That's called "negligence" in other fields.
Doesn't make sense at all. It's sad that politicians forget that college is about research and innovation and not about being able to get a job. Cut back on who gets a loan by using merit as a piece of criteria. But don't use loans to persuade students to study one topic vs another. Academic research requires all areas of study to succeed.
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