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Of course there are outliers, I know a few people who barely got into medschool but finished AOA because they finally got to their niche, but perhaps a less expensive path would be prudent for such individuals.
The masses have been given freedom of choice, and now complain that they were duped or that their educational debt load has left them destitute and unable to own a home or the latest iPhone. So clearly we have to break through to all the poor little Jonnies and Susies of the country and keep them safe from their choices.
You get choice, but with choice comes responsibility. Period.
I couldn't careless if someone wants to spend their time and money (present or future) studying undergrad marine biology, or psychology, or women's studies, it means less competitive housing markets for me, but it is their bed to lay in.
I currently have 4 open jobs for psychology majors--that need a masters degree but they still need that undergrad psych major (or social work), one being an executive position even....with 2 applicants so far. There are at least 4 other companies in my town that need the same. Don't just assume that since it is not engineering that the jobs are not out there...
I currently have 4 open jobs for psychology majors--that need a masters degree but they still need that undergrad psych major (or social work), one being an executive position even....with 2 applicants so far. There are at least 4 other companies in my town that need the same. Don't just assume that since it is not engineering that the jobs are not out there...
It was an over the top example, but ime psychology majors do generally have difficulty getting meaningful employment with just a four year degree.
And I know a couple of psychology majors who are just kind of floating by. It's a degree that many are drawn to, just like biology, but because of that draw just a BS or BA isn't going to give much of a leg up. It's also one of the easiest ways to pad a pre-med track and is a common second Major for just that reason.
Still, it takes four to five years to complete, and prospective students that are going to invest so much time and money into studying should be aware of their prospects. Of course there would be a delay, but employability matters.
I know the 17 year old version of me was very concerned with the career prospects of my educational path, and although I switched careers, I could revert back to that choice I made as a 17 year old and live almost as well as I am living now.
But I was sold on the long term prospects, and that was bolstered by knowing I was going to gain an indemand skill set that had massive barriers to entry (namely difficulty).
Let's give these 17 and 18 year olds a revision to the just go to college, because they can't seem to google the statistics themselves, and that IBR program is going to be costly if we keep making really well educated people when there aren't jobs for them.
Yes, many wash out of the military, but for those that stick around for a typical four year stint they will learn a lot about themselves, and a lot about life via their peers.
It is a four year delay in getting on with life, but is that so bad?
Graduate high school, get sent off to the Air Force to work on the electronics systems on jets, get paid $18,000/yr (plus room, board, and healthcare), leave the service and go to college having it all paid for as long as a clear path is chosen, stuck to and results in decent grades, and will get at least $750/month to live on if they go to school full time.
Again, here are people being told to pick their degree plan and execute it in four years with no general survey of classes. Something certainly done to save time and money, so wouldn't such direction be a worthwhile requirement for all students? Especially if you are coming from a position of free education.
First off, the military is not an employment agency. You have to have some skills they need. Some people find that there is no job on the outside that compares with what they did in the military; that they have to do a whole career change. Also, the military life is not for everyone. Some of the same reasons that keep young people from full time college can also keep them out of the military, e.g. family members that need help, etc.
Secondly, re: the bold, yes, it can be bad. Upthread I posted some information about college completion rates by starting age. By a big margin, those who start by age 20 have a higher graduation rate. Marriage, babies, mortgage all start coming into play as one gets farther into one's 20s. I also posted some info showing that returning GIs have a slighter lower college graduation rate than average.
I don't think anyone suggested " no general survey of classes". Most colleges do not require that a major be declared until the beginning of junior year. But then some of you guys screech about that, too. Most colleges require all freshmen to take certain courses. Even if one is sure of a major, the majority of classes taken are not in that major, especially freshman year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1
Sounds pretty simple. Unfortunately it doesn't work for everyone.
It works for most. College graduates out-earn high school grads and have lower unemployment, in general.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDrenter223
Of course there are outliers, I know a few people who barely got into medschool but finished AOA because they finally got to their niche, but perhaps a less expensive path would be prudent for such individuals.
The masses have been given freedom of choice, and now complain that they were duped or that their educational debt load has left them destitute and unable to own a home or the latest iPhone. So clearly we have to break through to all the poor little Jonnies and Susies of the country and keep them safe from their choices.
You get choice, but with choice comes responsibility. Period.
I couldn't careless if someone wants to spend their time and money (present or future) studying undergrad marine biology, or psychology, or women's studies, it means less competitive housing markets for me, but it is their bed to lay in.
Why would that be a good idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDrenter223
It was an over the top example, but ime psychology majors do generally have difficulty getting meaningful employment with just a four year degree.
And I know a couple of psychology majors who are just kind of floating by. It's a degree that many are drawn to, just like biology, but because of that draw just a BS or BA isn't going to give much of a leg up. It's also one of the easiest ways to pad a pre-med track and is a common second Major for just that reason.
Still, it takes four to five years to complete, and prospective students that are going to invest so much time and money into studying should be aware of their prospects. Of course there would be a delay, but employability matters.
I know the 17 year old version of me was very concerned with the career prospects of my educational path, and although I switched careers, I could revert back to that choice I made as a 17 year old and live almost as well as I am living now.
But I was sold on the long term prospects, and that was bolstered by knowing I was going to gain an indemand skill set that had massive barriers to entry (namely difficulty).
Let's give these 17 and 18 year olds a revision to the just go to college, because they can't seem to google the statistics themselves, and that IBR program is going to be costly if we keep making really well educated people when there aren't jobs for them.
Yet you're fine with them spending four years in the military pre-college. Everyone learns a lot about themselves in those four years of life after high school, whether they go to college, join the army, or work at McDonald's. It's that time in life.
Ehh, this isn't necessarily a good criteria. I know plenty of people who achieved less than a 3.0 in high school who did well in college (me included). I also know many who did much better than a 3.0 in high school who did very poorly in college (from mid-range schools). It depends on the person really. College is a sink or swim experience and much different than high school. Personally, I found college easier than high school being able to study more of what I found interesting. This could easily apply to anyone who didn't much like high school.
GPA is one of the main criteria used in admissions. If one has a poor GPA, one has to do things like take college classes (and do very well in them) in order to raise the GPA up enough to be accepted into a regular 4 year program.
First off, the military is not an employment agency. You have to have some skills they need. Some people find that there is no job on the outside that compares with what they did in the military; that they have to do a whole career change. Also, the military life is not for everyone. Some of the same reasons that keep young people from full time college can also keep them out of the military, e.g. family members that need help, etc.
The military teaches you those skills, they literally teach everything except nurses and lawyers, and those they outsource. Yes, some people do a career change, but they have the GI Bill to facilitate that transition. Unlike full time college, the military pays a wage, that money can be used in any number of ways, including sending it to families in need
Secondly, re: the bold, yes, it can be bad. Upthread I posted some information about college completion rates by starting age. By a big margin, those who start by age 20 have a higher graduation rate. Marriage, babies, mortgage all start coming into play as one gets farther into one's 20s. I also posted some info showing that returning GIs have a slighter lower college graduation rate than average.
Slightly lower, but debt free, this is about avoiding poverty. There are plenty of military careerfields that pay more than your run of the mill BS, and so of course grad rates are lower, if school isn't your jam and you can make more doing what you did in the military then it's a no brainer.
I don't think anyone suggested " no general survey of classes". Most colleges do not require that a major be declared until the beginning of junior year. But then some of you guys screech about that, too. Most colleges require all freshmen to take certain courses. Even if one is sure of a major, the majority of classes taken are not in that major, especially freshman year.
Doesn't happen with the GI Bill, every class must be required, electives must be proved, everything certified it is taxpayers dollars after all, just like IBR. So just hold all federal funding to the same standard, provide scaffolding with our investment.
It works for most. College graduates out-earn high school grads and have lower unemployment, in general.
And women in general get 77¢ on the dollar compared to men in general, but that's across all careerfields, so let's focus these kids attention to the certainty rather than the general.
Why would that be a good idea.
Best indicator of future performance is past performance. A student that has proved to be "weak" should minimize the fallout from failure by minimizing their debt loads. I met a guy in a shoe store, he was technically a doctor, but couldn't pass STEP 2 and would never get a residency. We didn't get into dollars, but he was an IMG and certainly had over $200k with no prospects. That's a shame. Granted even if he passed step 2 the match rate for IMG schools is abysmal so he could have ended up in the same spot either way.
If you didn't do well in HS, then start at a CC, don't go chasing the high dollar schools who will take anyone with a pulse.
Yet you're fine with them spending four years in the military pre-college. Everyone learns a lot about themselves in those four years of life after high school, whether they go to college, join the army, or work at McDonald's. It's that time in life.
Yes, because they aren't "finding themselves" while racking up thousands in debt. How do you not see the problem with spending money you don't have to find out what you want to do?
The military pays people, it pays them to learn, and if they don't like what they learned, they can learn something else when they get out of the military. I much rather see someone do four years AD, and then four years in college and come out with no debt in a stable field than see someone finish college in five years with a pile of debt and no hope of paying it off. People are hurting, be it their fault or not, and we need to stop the machine.
Yeah, the military has some unique jobs such as Infantryman, Munitions/Armament Specialist, Tank Crewman, etc. that really have no direct civilian equivalent. Anyone of reasonable intelligence can learn those, although your post-military applications may be somewhat limited.
I did not know what I wanted to do with my life until I was 26. When I was 18-25, I had no effing clue. Who the heck does have it together at that age? I was in the military for some of those years, worked some crap jobs afterwards, was in and out of college.
Once I figured out what I wanted to do & had a clear plan, it was not that hard. College is great if you have a plan. It is not so great if you're kind of floating through life because of the costs associated with it. What needs to stop is people thinking they "have" to go to college right after high school. If you don't know what you want your degree to accomplish, I suggest you do not need a degree. Go look for jobs in that case with the skills you have and see what happens. If you find out you need college to get where you want to be, THEN go to college.
There was once a day when a degree automatically signaled you were employable at a mid-range level out of the gate. Those were the days when only 8-15% of the population had a college degree of any kind including 2-year degrees. Those days are LONG gone... they were gone by the late 1970s. Now, more than double that proportion of the population has a college degree, so it's not as powerful signal for employers that it used to be. That does not make it useless, however.
Even the so-called "useless" liberal arts degrees can be leveraged into a job if you have a plan for how to use it. If you want to be a history teacher, getting a history degree is probably a good way to go about it. You'll improve your chances if you minor in kinesiology and get some experience volunteer coaching something at the Boys & Girls club or whatever. But if you major in history just because.... well, you liked one class, got an A, so majored in it,then it's probably not going to work out well. It is not because you have a "useless" degree. It's because you have no goal, are not focused, are not specific about what you want out of it. The college did what you paid it to do - offer classes to complete your degree majoring in [X].
I did not know what I wanted to do with my life until I was 26. When I was 18-25, I had no effing clue. Who the heck does have it together at that age? I was in the military for some of those years, worked some crap jobs afterwards, was in and out of college.
Once I figured out what I wanted to do & had a clear plan, it was not that hard. College is great if you have a plan. It is not so great if you're kind of floating through life because of the costs associated with it. What needs to stop is people thinking they "have" to go to college right after high school. If you don't know what you want your degree to accomplish, I suggest you do not need a degree. Go look for jobs in that case with the skills you have and see what happens. If you find out you need college to get where you want to be, THEN go to college.
There was once a day when a degree automatically signaled you were employable at a mid-range level out of the gate. Those were the days when only 8-15% of the population had a college degree of any kind including 2-year degrees. Those days are LONG gone... they were gone by the late 1970s. Now, more than double that proportion of the population has a college degree, so it's not as powerful signal for employers that it used to be. That does not make it useless, however.
Even the so-called "useless" liberal arts degrees can be leveraged into a job if you have a plan for how to use it. If you want to be a history teacher, getting a history degree is probably a good way to go about it. You'll improve your chances if you minor in kinesiology and get some experience volunteer coaching something at the Boys & Girls club or whatever. But if you major in history just because.... well, you liked one class, got an A, so majored in it,then it's probably not going to work out well. It is not because you have a "useless" degree. It's because you have no goal, are not focused, are not specific about what you want out of it. The college did what you paid it to do - offer classes to complete your degree majoring in [X].
When I was 18-22 or so, I was in the same boat you were in - just kind of drifting around and majoring in political science merely because I liked politics.
At 18, I was still living at home, working a part-time grocery store job, and more interested in chasing women than doing anything else. I had no real goals. Still, the liberal arts and social sciences education I received fit me to a "T." Even after I dropped out for a semester and decided to major in economics, which I thought would be more useful, I still didn't know much of what I wanted to do other than I was also interested in financial markets and regional banking.
I never monetized any of that - I ended up working in IT. I really wish I could figure out some way to go back and turn the major into an actual job in the sector.
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