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It's not enough to just get a job to justify getting a degree. You have to weigh the cost of the degree with the increase in earnings from obtaining a job that requires the degree, as well as the earnings of alternative jobs that do not require a degree.
It's just a rule of thumb, but your starting salary should exceed your student loan debt. Starting salaries are nearing $50,000 for college grads, while the average loan debt for undergraduate borrowers (which includes people who drop out - we are discussing at some level whether college is worth pursuing at all) is above $25,000. So if you can get an average job with an undergraduate degree college is still worth it. However if you choose a major that necessitates getting a graduate degree to make yourself employable, then the student loan debt shoots up much faster than the starting salaries.
A degree is useless if you need to get another degree to become employable, when you could have obtained an alternative degree to the first and been employable then. For a lot of liberal arts graduates, an MBA, nursing degree, etc. are a "do-over". If you need to get a "do-over" degree, the payoff from your set of degrees rapidly approaches zero.
There's also the problem of credentialism, where employers require degrees simply because there is a surplus of degree holders and that's a free and legal screening mechanism for employability, even though the job may not require any of the knowledge or skills acquired during the degree program. The labor market is stuck in a credentialist arms race, and yes it's foolhardy to expect people to unilaterally disarm and cede the advantage to others. But that doesn't mean we cannot point out the absurdity of the situation and hopefully effect some sea change in the public perception of college degrees.
An MBA is not designed to be a career-changer degree. It's a degree for experienced people who want to advance. Just about every organization has management.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Mitch
One problem is, most kids don't know what they want to do, in fact they don't have any idea about many/most jobs out there. And the ideas they do have frequently come from Hollywood, which is to say, the ideas are at least distorted, and frequently outright wrong.
Maybe the people you know didn't know. Most I knew did. I knew what I wanted to do by 8th grade.
It's not enough to just get a job to justify getting a degree. You have to weigh the cost of the degree with the increase in earnings from obtaining a job that requires the degree, as well as the earnings of alternative jobs that do not require a degree.
It's just a rule of thumb, but your starting salary should exceed your student loan debt. Starting salaries are nearing $50,000 for college grads, while the average loan debt for undergraduate borrowers (which includes people who drop out - we are discussing at some level whether college is worth pursuing at all) is above $25,000. So if you can get an average job with an undergraduate degree college is still worth it. However if you choose a major that necessitates getting a graduate degree to make yourself employable, then the student loan debt shoots up much faster than the starting salaries.
A degree is useless if you need to get another degree to become employable, when you could have obtained an alternative degree to the first and been employable then. For a lot of liberal arts graduates, an MBA, nursing degree, etc. are a "do-over". If you need to get a "do-over" degree, the payoff from your set of degrees rapidly approaches zero.
There's also the problem of credentialism, where employers require degrees simply because there is a surplus of degree holders and that's a free and legal screening mechanism for employability, even though the job may not require any of the knowledge or skills acquired during the degree program. The labor market is stuck in a credentialist arms race, and yes it's foolhardy to expect people to unilaterally disarm and cede the advantage to others. But that doesn't mean we cannot point out the absurdity of the situation and hopefully effect some sea change in the public perception of college degrees.
Credentialism is indeed a big problem. It's out of control, and it is correct that there are now degrees being required for jobs that just don't warrant the requirement. That is absolutely true.
However, the rest of it...
The amount of student loan debt is dependent on the student and the school. The national average is a useless marker in that sense, especially since it includes students at for-profit schools and they greatly drive up the number.
Also, generally, the degree itself is not what makes you "unemployable" upon graduation. It's getting a degree with no internships or research or leadership experiences or significant volunteer experiences that make an individual unemployable.
Also, picking a major solely on how much money you make in the first job (and whether you could have made more without it), or with a different degree, is a false comparison because it assumes all jobs are equally attainable for all people. So, if individual A's talents lie is writing and data analysis (but not in math or physics) then sure theoretically they could earn more by getting a civil engineering degree, but in reality they'd have a hard time passing the classes and would not likely be any good at the profession, ending up stuck in an entry level job forever. If that person had focused on their strengths, they'd end up in a major that would develop and refine their strengths, expose them to internships and such that gave them professional experience based around those strengths, and end up in a career where they could climb the ladder.
Alternatively, they could not go to college and try to strengthen those natural skills on the job, they may end up good at what they do... and eventually get passed over for promotion by someone who actually has a degree.
Everyone going to college should try to minimize debt based on their own financial circumstances, choose a major based around their skills and interests, and look for opportunities to build on those skills though clubs, internships, volunteering, etc. Plan ahead, do it smart. Don't pick a major based on national averages and starting salaries in fields you have zero interest in.
Don't go to college unless you have the inclination and aptitude for what are now the higher-paying majors and degrees.
Too many people are going to college. The system made more sense when only 25% or so of students went to college.
Stop the credentialist arms race by reforming secondary education to prepare most workers for roles rather than requiring post-secondary education to fill the gap.
Your first two notions are laughable. If that worldview prevailed, we wouldn't have historians, writers, musicians, artists, graphic designers, and a host of other professions that start out slowly in terms of compensation but wind up doing just fine. Essentially, we'd have nothing but engineers, doctors, a few lab technicians, and factory workers. And a rather impoverished world in terms of quality of life.
I mean, my degree is in English. I make more than all but the highest-paid engineers. Was my degree a waste? Of course not.
Your first two notions are laughable. If that worldview prevailed, we wouldn't have historians, writers, musicians, artists, graphic designers, and a host of other professions that start out slowly in terms of compensation but wind up doing just fine. Essentially, we'd have nothing but engineers, doctors, a few lab technicians, and factory workers. And a rather impoverished world in terms of quality of life.
I mean, my degree is in English. I make more than all but the highest-paid engineers. Was my degree a waste? Of course not.
College is a tremendous misallocation of resources at current tuition rates for many people. Is it really necessary to go to school for four years to learn to be any of the jobs you mentioned? I am arguing that formal schooling is only necessary for topics that are cumulative and structured such as engineering or science. If your school work involves a lot of studio classes, seminars, and lectures that are essentially one-offs and don't build on each other, I don't see the advantage or formal schooling. Gaining experience in the workforce is better for such careers.
College is a tremendous misallocation of resources at current tuition rates for many people. Is it really necessary to go to school for four years to learn to be any of the jobs you mentioned? I am arguing that formal schooling is only necessary for topics that are cumulative and structured such as engineering or science. If your school work involves a lot of studio classes, seminars, and lectures that are essentially one-offs and don't build on each other, I don't see the advantage or formal schooling. Gaining experience in the workforce is better for such careers.
Actually, yes. You realize that you've pretty much insulted every writer, artist, and musician, et al, with that question, right? Not to mention every professional out there. The reason you don't see the advantage of formal schooling is that you've evidently never bothered to understand what it takes to learn those disciplines.
According to your worldview, they could just take a correspondence course to master their chosen fields, along the lines of those "Draw Pokey" ads one used to see in the back of Boys Life magazine. Yet spend a couple of minutes speaking with a good graphic designer, and you'll learn that it is a meat grinder curriculum with countless hours spent refining craft under the tutelage of a demanding professor. Do you think that becoming a skilled musician just comes naturally? For every intuitive genius you ever read about who picked up the axe and just started playing, there are hundreds who had to learn their respective instruments the hard way through learning musical theory and a host of other courses. Yet these are all people who earn good livings in the world today.
The problem here is twofold. First, you assume that all those businesses in these professions just have the time and money to bring on apprentices and train them, as if this were 1760s Boston and Paul Revere bringing in a trainee silversmith. Holy smokes. I've owned a business for 27 years. And when I hire you, I don't have time to babysit. Even a kid coming straight out of school is kind of a dicey proposition. I don't know in what Alice In Wonderland world you dwell, but that isn't happening.
Second, there's this weird belief you harbor that every kid graduating college is going to exit with six figures in debt. Quit reading articles about people graduating Bowdoin with a BS in social work and $150,000 in student loans. In truth, the average kid graduating from a public college in 2016 left with a student loan debt of roughly $25,550. Hey, not ideal, but that's not exactly insurmountable either. Given the fact that it's a long-term payment plan means that it's less that a car payment. And, given that you could work a second job and pay that puppy off in 2-3 years, it gets even less onerous.
In other words, your lack of respect those professions has nothing to do with how important it is to have an education in those professions or in the liberal arts.
Last edited by MinivanDriver; 06-16-2017 at 03:38 PM..
this weird belief you harbor that every kid graduating college is going to exit with six figures in debt. Quit reading articles about people graduating Bowdoin with a BS in social work and $150,000 in student loans. In truth, the average kid graduating from a public college in 2016 left with a student loan debt of roughly $25,550. Hey, not ideal, but that's not exactly insurmountable either. Given the fact that it's a long-term payment plan means that it's less that a car payment. And, given that you could work a second job and pay that puppy off in 2-3 years, it gets even less onerous.
In other words, your lack of respect those professions has nothing to do with how important it is to have an education in those professions or in the liberal arts.
You are personalizing this discussion and being very insulting.
And where did I claim the above? I cited the average student loan debt number you gave myself.
I think you are conflating self worth with education, and see an attack on one's education as an attack on one's self worth. I see education as a tool and not part of someone's identity.
Without the piece of paper confirming that education, it will make zero difference to your career prospects.
So I have to spend 30k just to get a piece of paper that confirms my education?
Even if you did get the paper it's very likely you'll end up unemployed or stuck working at Taco Bell.
Just having the paper is not enough these days. You'll also need marketable job skills and years of work experience for an employer to consider you for a position.
So I have to spend 30k just to get a piece of paper that confirms my education?
Even if you did get the paper it's very likely you'll end up unemployed or stuck working at Taco Bell.
Just having the paper is not enough these days. You'll also need marketable job skills and years of work experience for an employer to consider you for a position.
Piece of paper? Piece of paper means nothing. What means something is the four or five years of grind that it took to get that "piece of paper."
I've said before, you don't want to go to college, then don't go to college. But don't complain after the fact about those who do.
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