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Old 08-15-2017, 02:09 PM
 
1,039 posts, read 344,391 times
Reputation: 1167

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MI-Roger View Post
A typical starting salary for a new lawyer is $35K-$40K per year - and that is for the ones who find jobs in the legal profession!

As our youngest said to me a few months ago; "I have five friends who have law degrees, only two of them found work as lawyers, and only one of those makes enough money to support himself."
You have a propensity to extrapolate too much from 2nd and 3rd hand information, especially from your son.

The average salary for practicing lawyers right out of law school (even when you factor in public sector employment) is higher than 35-40k/yr. The federal judiciary, for example, publishes the pay scale (plus cost of living adjustments) for its law clerks. Just look at JSP 11 (the lowest for a fresh out of law school grad) and up. If you happen to have the grades to clerk at a well-regarded district court, circuit court, or better yet spend another year as a scotus clerk, then you become very attractive to big law firms (plus six figure hiring bonuses for scotus clerks - they are the cream of the crop though). For those who go directly into firms, the pay is substantially higher than your quoted figure of 35-40k, with the upper echelons in large legal markets starting at 180k+ for first year associates who have zero practical legal skills. I mean zero.
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Old 08-16-2017, 07:59 AM
 
Location: Chicago
6,005 posts, read 13,178,004 times
Reputation: 7956
Quote:
Originally Posted by oh-eve View Post
I thought only supersmart people are at Harvard.


The only thing she seems to be smart about is her rent.
Again, don't confuse Harvard University with the Harvard Extension School. The admission criteria for the latter is far more lax, especially for the A.R.T. program.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/18/us...ew-allure.html

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/...dmissions.html

Last edited by eevee; 08-16-2017 at 08:12 AM.. Reason: added link
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Old 08-20-2017, 11:33 AM
 
2,468 posts, read 2,722,968 times
Reputation: 2563
This woman sounds like a textbook example of someone who has called into the Dave Ramsey Show complaining about high student loan debt. Unfortunately there are so many of those out there with high student loan debt to pay back and low-paying jobs.

At this point and time, it sounds like Ms. Donohue probably needs to change her career.
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Old 08-21-2017, 11:48 AM
 
Location: WI
2,820 posts, read 3,062,694 times
Reputation: 4815
This is a degree from the Extension School, which is an open enrollment program for adults. She's not a "Harvard graduate" in the conventional sense. As the article points out, this is not a master of fine arts from Harvard (which doesn't exist), but a degree from a Harvard-associated institute. Obviously, for what it is, it's not a good value. But it's not a representative example of the experience of the average Harvard graduate or value of a true Harvard degree.
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Old 08-22-2017, 02:31 PM
 
1,139 posts, read 670,494 times
Reputation: 689
Ya know, I think it's mostly the "gifted and attractive / charismatic" people that become mobie stahs and actors and musicians and such...
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Old 08-22-2017, 06:31 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
72,664 posts, read 64,111,757 times
Reputation: 68425
Quote:
Originally Posted by City Guy997S View Post
https://www.boston.com/culture/local...theater-degree





She should have gone to community college if she wanted to do community theater!
With an MA from Harvard in Theater, she could be teaching the community college courses.

Oh. It's not a conventional Harvard degree. Well, what did she expect?
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Old 08-22-2017, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Nashville TN, Cincinnati, OH
1,798 posts, read 976,621 times
Reputation: 2286
You can be poor from Ivy League schools, pick a liberal arts major at any school and you might not get a lucrative job. Bachelor degree is no guarantee to even get a job now if you have a master degree or professional your chances get much better.
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Old 08-22-2017, 08:22 PM
 
785 posts, read 344,449 times
Reputation: 2050
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCresident2014 View Post
I went to law school and started at $160k + bonus, along with thousands of others in my class year across the country. Three years later, I ended up working on a deal that netted me nearly $500k of take home pay in a single year. I now make mid-200's in salary plus an occasional six figure retention bonus.

I had no special connections or business ties, didn't hustle or sell myself- I just did well in law school. If you are diligent and do well in school, you get multiple offers. I had interviews with 19 firms, all paying over $130k; 11 paid over $160k. My school was a lower tier 1, nothing fancy.

If you're the type to party on weekends and wait until the last minute to do your homework, you won't do well in law school. But if you treat it like a job- 40-60 hours a week of diligent work during the semester, you'll easily be in the magical "top 25%". Don't let the failures be the reason that you don't go to law school- model yourself after the winners.
The majority of people who graduate from law school do not end up anywhere close to this in terms of the jobs they are offered and receive. It's fine for you to say to not let the 'failures' be the reason to not go to law school. Ok, fine. Don't let it be the 'failures'. Let it be the fact that if you're in the 75% of law school graduates not in that "magical top 25%", you will most likely be facing tens of thousands, if not $75K - $100K in loans with a job paying you barely enough to make a dent in that for the next 25 years.

Yeah, that 'magical 25%' is a great place to be, but the vast majority of law school grads never get there and the consequences make it worth taking a long, hard look before you make that decision.

Also, I'd like to point out that it is not only people who 'party on the weekends' and wait until the last minute to do homework who don't make it into the top 25%. Most law schools grade on a curve. You simply cannot have everyone in the top 25%. If half of the students in class do excellently, there will STILL only be 25% (more like 10%) with that A+ grade.
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Old 08-24-2017, 09:25 AM
 
Location: My House
33,055 posts, read 26,870,396 times
Reputation: 24400
I'm a bit scared that she has no clue how to structure a proper repayment plan. IBR plus a low income would have her paying very little per month until she's done with the program and the rest is written off (thought she must pay taxes on that part, it's still less than if she was forced to pay it all and could not afford it).

Bottom line: She's not very bright, but it's not because of her loans.
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Old 08-24-2017, 09:44 AM
 
1,408 posts, read 807,001 times
Reputation: 3249
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonimuso View Post
The majority of people who graduate from law school do not end up anywhere close to this in terms of the jobs they are offered and receive. It's fine for you to say to not let the 'failures' be the reason to not go to law school. Ok, fine. Don't let it be the 'failures'. Let it be the fact that if you're in the 75% of law school graduates not in that "magical top 25%", you will most likely be facing tens of thousands, if not $75K - $100K in loans with a job paying you barely enough to make a dent in that for the next 25 years.

Yeah, that 'magical 25%' is a great place to be, but the vast majority of law school grads never get there and the consequences make it worth taking a long, hard look before you make that decision.

Also, I'd like to point out that it is not only people who 'party on the weekends' and wait until the last minute to do homework who don't make it into the top 25%. Most law schools grade on a curve. You simply cannot have everyone in the top 25%. If half of the students in class do excellently, there will STILL only be 25% (more like 10%) with that A+ grade.
This is the logical fallacy that drives poor decision-making with regard to career path. It's the "everyone can't be the best, so therefore I shouldn't try" logic. It's flawed- you're assuming that everyone is equal and therefore it's systematically unfair that 75% will not get the great jobs. I promise you that this is not true. People are not equal with respect to ability, drive, or knowledge.

It's not a lottery system- as you say, law school grades on a curve. You only have to swim faster than the person next to you. People who "get it" beat those who don't, and for most people, hard work is what helps them to "get it". In a magical world where everyone is diligent and works hard, you're right that this system would be unfair as there wouldn't be enough jobs to go around. But we don't live in that world- we live in the real world. In the real world, you can look around the classroom and instantly see who will be in the bottom portion of the class. They aren't engaged at all. You can probably even pick out those who will be in the top 25% simply by looking at whose eyeballs are pegged to the professor instead of their computers browsing the web.

The same holds true in the library- if you see individuals in the library early in the semester or right after a new writing assignment is assigned, you're probably looking at the top 25%. If you go right before exams and see people you've never seen before, those are probably the bottom 75%.

Am I overgeneralizing? Of course. There are people who are super diligent who just don't "get it", but my question is this- do you want that person working at your law firm? Or on your criminal case? I would suspect not. On the other hand, there are people who do very little work and just "get it"- again, do you want this person defending you in court? Probably, assuming they can do the mundane stuff too (which will be sorted out very, very quickly once they start at a firm).

Law school, just like any decision involving an outlay of cash and time, is a risk. But in my dealings with hundreds, if not thousands, of law students and lawyers, I can't think of a single one who really "got it" but didn't get a good job. I met PLENTY who complained about getting stuck with a crappy job but also who wouldn't pass my "would I want them defending me" test.

I suspect that most of the arguments are coming from people who didn't/won't go to law school then fight hard to justify their decision in the face of people who were successful. Jobs aren't a gift that you get in exchange for paying for a law degree, but it you are a valuable person, people will hire you. Grades, class rank, and school rank are just proxies for value until you develop a track record.
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