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Old 11-14-2017, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
24,717 posts, read 59,563,864 times
Reputation: 26822

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Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
Sounds like you're covering your bases in-state then. Like others have said, I'd look deeper into the various private colleges available.

What is the objection to out of state?

If you're considering private colleges, then the cost issue is not as salient and he might even get some scholarships. Depending where you are in Michigan, universities in the Chicago area, Indiana, and Ohio are within fairly easy driving distance. Also, I think there in-state tuition reciprocity agreements in place between Michigan and other midwestern states: Midwest Student Exchange Program |.

I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around the dichotomies of this choice. One is a small, private, ideologically oriented college, literally the poster boy for "education for Conservatives" - probably the most famous in that regard to be honest. The other is almost the opposite poster-boy for a "Big-Name Public Tier-1 Research University" and all that entails.

I feel like this needs a lot more discussion between you and him to suss out what it is about both he likes so much, and what are his most important priorities.

I'll address this in your original post:



That sounds like what a conservative would say.

I would say that the difference is that Hillsdale is conservative by willful intention. I'm not criticizing that, it is a choice they have made and they put it up front. University of Michigan is one of the highest regarded state flagships in the country, so its intention is to have the highest ranked departments according to the specific academic disciplinary standards. The education there will be liberally oriented as a consequence of there being more liberals in the campus community, but they do not set out to be liberal.

To get your own sense of it, again, I recommend Hillsdale's online courses which are free, you can sample a number of classes that are their core curriculum. As I said, they are very much about "Western Heritage." Western Civ isn't even taught anymore at a lot of colleges; I won't go into why, suffice it to say it's out of date, but at a place like U-M they will challenge it: https://www.ii.umich.edu/lrccs/news-...-a-transl.html A university as big as U-M will still teach it since they are big, the flagship, and "researchy" enough to still have a Classics department https://lsa.umich.edu/classics/about-us.html

In fact I would recommend sitting in on the same or similar classes from the Gen Ed at both Hillsdale and U-M if that is really the choice at hand, because I can't emphasize enough that this is NOT a 1:1 choice going on here. It's far more than just Republican vs. Democrat. There is a serious difference in pedagogy and overall philosophy of education that will permeate not only a student's college career, but the career direction afterward.

Even more importantly, the types of people he will associate and network with will be very different.

That all needs to be considered.

Look at the difference in their mission statements:

U-M Accreditation2010: Mission and Integrity
https://www.hillsdale.edu/about/mission/

In particular, these stand out to me:
Hillsdale:

Michigan:
Thank you, that is an interesting way of looking at things.

The apples to Pizza comparison is exactly why these are the two choices. Almost all other universities/colleges are the same approach as Michigan. Michigan is the best of them. Thus if you want to remain local and you get into to Michigan that is where you go if you want the typical University education. (His sister was accepted to U-M Ann Arbor but she applied late and had already started at U-M Dearborn where she ultimately decided to remain despite the reputation difference - at Dearborn she was working 1 on 1 with professors on research projects almost right away - that does not much happen in Ann Arbor. So it is not always better for all people, but it certainly carries the better reputation))

Hillsdale is something altogether different. It does not compete with Michigan because it is something different altogether. (Comparing apples to Pizza). That is why it is still in Consideration against Michigan.

It exhibited some very positive traits for him. The size, the extremely active campus, very motivated, friendly confident and outgoing students, They acted like they wanted him personally, opposed to Michigan's attitude of you can come here if you are very lucky.

On the other hand there are concerns. Does it lack connections and alumni network (or is it more connected and stronger alumni network). It is too conservative/religious? He told me he saw several students wearing a Hajab and his tour guide wore a Yamake, so it does not appear to be totally uncomfortable for anyone who does not fit a certain evangelical Christian mold. Is it too conservative? He is christian and has a light conservative outlook on some issues, but he gets really annoyed when anything is presented without an open mind and fair consideration to all sides. The liberal bent at U-M will definitely annoy him but not to the point where he would not attend, besides nearly all public universities are that way. Is the conservative slant so extreme at Hillsdale it would be annoying or even intolerable?

The reputation is also of concern. It is extremely selective. (3.81 GPA and 1400 Sat average). However it is not clear that translates into a great reputation and ready entry into grade school or jobs.

One option seems to be to take two years at Hillsdale for the experience then transfer to Michigan for the credential, plus Hillsdale does not offer engineering if that is what he actually ends up wanting to do.


So the question is not delicious vs Honeycrisp apples, but apples vs pizza.

Of course if Hillsdale does not offer him $25,000 or more in scholarship, it will not really be a question.

BTW for those who are asking, he wants to stay relatively near home and most of his siblings. He did apply to U - Toledo and Bowling Green. He loved the Toledo Campus and his sister will be teaching classes at Bowling green in Jannuary as she completes her PhD. But neither one is really competitive with U-M. I am not sure why he is not considering Indiana given their highly rated trumpet program, but it is his choice. I am not going to strong arm him into going somewhere that he is not excited to attend.

I figured he woudl go to UNT no question since most of my wife's family lives less than 20 miles away and that is the best option for jazz trumpet. But then I was surprised when he announced he was not going to focus on trumpet as a career. I do not think he knows what he wants for a career, but the nomadic lifestyle of a creative performer, or the dull mechanical work of an orchestra player do not appeal to him. His sister is a music teacher and being broke and dealing with the nightmare that is now the business of teaching has little appeal either (although possibly some appeal). He wants to stick with trumpet since he is so good at it and loves it, but he is looking for something different as a primary base, possibly something that can be tied to his music but with a steady paycheck and not dull. Who knows what he wall find. When I started school I thought I was going to be an actor. I ended up deciding to go to law school part way through so I majored in whatever had the shortest lines at registration. However it was a big change from acting. His brother started out in Mechanical Engineering and is now an Information Systems major. One sister started with a science orientation, possibly medicine or even politics. She ended up on the road to becoming a psychology professor. For many or most people, what you think you want to do based only on high school experience really has little relation to your ultimate career path.

Last edited by Coldjensens; 11-14-2017 at 09:44 AM..

 
Old 11-14-2017, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
24,717 posts, read 59,563,864 times
Reputation: 26822
Quote:
Originally Posted by strawflower View Post
I'm not sure where you're seeing that Hillsdale is $48K. According to their website it's around $37K all-in (tuition, room, board, and fees) - that's actually remarkably cheap for a private institution.

Edit: I have heard Hope College in Holland also has a solid reputation in the Midwest as far as more conservative schools go.

$48 K is what they told him when he was there. $50K is what they told my daughter 8 years ago.

I suspect the $37K may be an average after deducing their average scholarship. Or maybe it is tuition only, without adding in room and board, books, fees, etc. At least that is the only way I can make sense of it.
 
Old 11-14-2017, 09:38 AM
 
698 posts, read 383,032 times
Reputation: 854
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simpsonvilllian View Post
The level of animosity by some people on here for this college is incredible.
And the percentage of that "animosity" that is well-deserved is quite high. It's only so much lipstick that can actually be put on a pig. Hillsdale is emblematic of reactionary social and political extremism. It isn't so many employers who are looking to recruit reactionaries and extremists.
 
Old 11-14-2017, 09:55 AM
 
698 posts, read 383,032 times
Reputation: 854
Quote:
Originally Posted by strawflower View Post
Edit: I have heard Hope College in Holland also has a solid reputation in the Midwest as far as more conservative schools go.
Hope College = education tinged by a "vibrant Christian faith." And a student body smaller than many of my local area high schools.

Last edited by VendorDude; 11-14-2017 at 10:21 AM..
 
Old 11-14-2017, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Midwest
3,697 posts, read 6,712,673 times
Reputation: 5623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left-handed View Post
If I knew this thread was going to be a soap box for disillusioned political wingnuts, I would have ignored it altogether.

My whole point here is that if OP wants the best bang for his son's educational investment, then picking the more reputable school would be my number one choice.

For all practical intents and purposes, how many more doors do you think a Hillsdale College degree is going to open for his son in comparison to a University of Michigan degree? But if OP wishes to send his son to a college that nobody outside of the most conservative circles gives two hoots about, then by all means do it. It's his son who will be competing with grads from far more reputable and prestigious schools, not me. I really couldn't care less.
There are two separate issues here to consider. Both are valid, only the long run will show which is more important.

1. Status degree from Status U. likely to find many more employment opportunities.
2. Very good general education, sans political propagandizing, with a grounding in our Founding.
 
Old 11-14-2017, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Greenville SC 'The Waterfall City'
6,091 posts, read 3,195,138 times
Reputation: 2334
Quote:
Originally Posted by VendorDude View Post
And the percentage of that "animosity" that is well-deserved is quite high. It's only so much lipstick that can actually be put on a pig. Hillsdale is emblematic of reactionary social and political extremism. It isn't so many employers who are looking to recruit reactionaries and extremists.
You haven't provided any evidence that Hillsdale is reactionary or extremist or that employers view Hillsdale that way. Your assertion is rooted in your political ideology. I'm not sure why you are putting animosity in quotes given it is clear you have animosity.
 
Old 11-14-2017, 11:11 AM
 
698 posts, read 383,032 times
Reputation: 854
Tell it to the HR Director. LOL! In a diverse economy that is only becoming more so, social and economic disdain for the likes of Hillsdale become increasingly more robust and widespread.
 
Old 11-14-2017, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Greenville SC 'The Waterfall City'
6,091 posts, read 3,195,138 times
Reputation: 2334
Ok, I'm sure that employers are not consulting you about Hillsdale.

Hillsdale is a small liberal arts college graduating around 400 students a year so you are kidding yourself if you think there aren't plenty of employers out there that will hire these students. For 400 Hillsdale grads to struggle to get a job would require basically every employer to have a negative view of Hillsdale.

The average hiring manager doesn't have the politics of Michael Moore.
 
Old 11-14-2017, 11:29 AM
 
698 posts, read 383,032 times
Reputation: 854
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simpsonvilllian View Post
Ok, I'm sure that employers are not consulting you about Hillsdale.
They don't have to. Unlike you and a handful of others like you, they already know the score.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simpsonvilllian View Post
Hillsdale is a small liberal arts college graduating around 400 students a year so you are kidding yourself if you think there aren't plenty of employers out there that will hire these students. For 400 Hillsdale grads to struggle to get a job would require basically every employer to have a negative view of Hillsdale.
Negative views of Hillsdale far outnumber positive views, just as they do for other reactionary, extremist sorts of institutions.
 
Old 11-14-2017, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
5,242 posts, read 3,393,710 times
Reputation: 8783
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverkris View Post
Other schools with a traditional liberal arts core curriculum with a Western Civ feature are

Columbia University
U of Chicago

It's supposed to make you think critically.

So that by itself doesn't necessarily point to a political orientation, though Hillsdale is pretty consciously conservative.
They are also prestigious tier 1 universities with big endowments. There's a reason people want to go to those, and the rigor that Classics entails relates to it.

Classics have been cut from a lot of curricula at lower tiered colleges due to budget pressure. This is the priority typically - Foreign languages always get cut first, then difficult humanities classes that have low enrollment like philosophy/classics, then pure sciences like physics which are also low enrollment, then music & art.

There's a reason why, when you go up in tier, you see a lot more students majoring in the traditional academic disciplines.
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