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[quote=Katarina Witt;51689205]Some people go to great lengths to justify not going to college, don't they? Youtube is not evidence for anything.[/url]
At no point did I employ an argument by authority. Instead, I offered reasoning. Instead of disproving any of my assertions, you used yet another logical fallacy, namely the Courtier's Reply fallacy: "The source you referenced is on a YouTube video. I consider content on YouTube videos invalid (at least when it doesn't suit my purposes), therefore the argument itself is invalid." No, you'll have to do better than that. There are many other sources on the dubious propag...er...statistics employed to sell four-year universities as the prescription for most high school students.
Let me also correct your next logical fallacy, namely the strawman argument that I don't value a college education. That's news to me as I work on a master's degree as we speak. To correct you, it's precisely because I value college education that I do not want thousands of students there who should not be at four-year colleges. It detracts from the education of the other students who do want to be there for the right reasons and who are capable of completing a degree.
No, if you want to rebut my assertions, you need to do it with reasoning, not with fallacious arguments that avoid reasoning.
So they decided to go to college anyway despite not actually needing it because they already had these advantages? You are going to have to explain this hole in your reasoning.
Not terribly difficult to explain. The pressure from parents and from public high schools to attend four-year universities is immense. I should know: I teach in a public high school. Most students from middle class families never even consider the idea of not going to college because of the socialization that occurs and the pressure to conform to these norms. Fortunately, my sense is that this is beginning to change. The ridiculous costs of college are starting to make some re-evaluate the situation and there are even some students who are starting to question the conventional wisdom they are fed by adults as they are exposed to more people in media who voice contrary, unorthodox opinions on the subject. That's a good thing. It's also a good thing for the remaining blue-collar workers in our economy who are looked down upon in so many ways. At a time when young men, especially, are really struggling, guiding them into skilled trades is a godsend for those young men who have aptitudes in these areas but in the past would otherwise feel the pressure to go to four-year universities where they really don't want to be and where half of them will wash out, anyways.
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
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In my department everyone makes $12 to $13 an hour in a low COL metro area. Myself and another person have a bachelor's degree, several people attended but didn't graduate 4 year school, one person has two different 2 year degrees. All of us are working a job that only requires a HS diploma.
All of these elites pushing college on everyone should first take an Economics 101 class. Supply and Demand. The more people that have college degrees the less valuable the degree becomes because it in no way alters the type of jobs every economy has. If everyone had a bachelor's degree there would be the same number of people working a janitors, dump truck drivers, doctors, teachers, etc.
The effects of over education on the economy are staggering. Millions of people have less disposable income due to repayments on loans they should have never taken out. The govt receives less funds because so many people get thousands of dollars (up to $2500) on loan interest deductions. Many millions are spent on primary education trying to force kids who will never be good at school to do well enough to get admitted to some college when they would have been much better off the be taught a trade.
If I have kids I will strongly encourage them not to go to college because it now hurts, not helps, your economic future.
In my department everyone makes $12 to $13 an hour in a low COL metro area. Myself and another person have a bachelor's degree, several people attended but didn't graduate 4 year school, one person has two different 2 year degrees. All of us are working a job that only requires a HS diploma.
All of these elites pushing college on everyone should first take an Economics 101 class. Supply and Demand. The more people that have college degrees the less valuable the degree becomes because it in no way alters the type of jobs every economy has. If everyone had a bachelor's degree there would be the same number of people working a janitors, dump truck drivers, doctors, teachers, etc.
The effects of over education on the economy are staggering. Millions of people have less disposable income due to repayments on loans they should have never taken out. The govt receives less funds because so many people get thousands of dollars (up to $2500) on loan interest deductions. Many millions are spent on primary education trying to force kids who will never be good at school to do well enough to get admitted to some college when they would have been much better off the be taught a trade.
If I have kids I will strongly encourage them not to go to college because it now hurts, not helps, your economic future.
I think something should be clarified: I encourage just about all kids to go to some sort of post-secondary school. When I criticize this ubiquitous pressure to go to "college," I'm speaking specifically about 4-year schools.
It's remarkable that most college students and parents aren't livid over the administrative bloat, so often in the "diversity/multicultural/affirmative action" racket, the absolute addiction these university managers have to constructing new buildings (as higher education simultaneously moves to more education being delivered electronically), and on college athletics, where only a precious few powerhouse football/basketball programs turn a profit. Most universities lose money on sports. So, their tuition is wasted on administrative bloat, building buildings that aren't needed and sports and you hear hardly a peep about this relative to the unending tuition spikes. Amazing. Yes, instead let's make four year universities "free" to all and crowd even more people into these places, most of whom should not be there in the first place?
And what effect does that necessarily have on rigor? And what effect does that have on the Mickey Mouse courses/majors they must increasingly offer to get more than half of incoming freshmen to be able to graduate down the line? At some point don't the leaders at our universities and we as a people have to stop and ask ourselves, "What exactly are we trying to do here?"
At no point did I employ an argument by authority. Instead, I offered reasoning. Instead of disproving any of my assertions, you used yet another logical fallacy, namely the Courtier's Reply fallacy: "The source you referenced is on a YouTube video. I consider content on YouTube videos invalid (at least when it doesn't suit my purposes), therefore the argument itself is invalid." No, you'll have to do better than that. There are many other sources on the dubious propag...er...statistics employed to sell four-year universities as the prescription for most high school students.
Let me also correct your next logical fallacy, namely the strawman argument that I don't value a college education. That's news to me as I work on a master's degree as we speak. To correct you, it's precisely because I value college education that I do not want thousands of students there who should not be at four-year colleges. It detracts from the education of the other students who do want to be there for the right reasons and who are capable of completing a degree.
No, if you want to rebut my assertions, you need to do it with reasoning, not with fallacious arguments that avoid reasoning.
Who do you think should go to college, and who should decide if someone is "college material"?
You're still avoiding the question and continuing with the logical fallacy! Amazing! Just to remind you: YouTube isn't advancing the argument. Academic Marty Nemko is advancing the argument in that particular case on the YouTube platform, but at no point did I advance the idea that you or anyone should believe him simply because he's an academic. No, I offered up the reasoning and you still avoid disputing my assertions with any sort of reasoning.
I will gladly answer your question, but as a show of good faith, you need to first rebut my comments, or else this just becomes a predictable game of argument evasion.
In my department everyone makes $12 to $13 an hour in a low COL metro area. Myself and another person have a bachelor's degree, several people attended but didn't graduate 4 year school, one person has two different 2 year degrees. All of us are working a job that only requires a HS diploma.
All of these elites pushing college on everyone should first take an Economics 101 class. Supply and Demand. The more people that have college degrees the less valuable the degree becomes because it in no way alters the type of jobs every economy has. If everyone had a bachelor's degree there would be the same number of people working a janitors, dump truck drivers, doctors, teachers, etc.
The effects of over education on the economy are staggering. Millions of people have less disposable income due to repayments on loans they should have never taken out. The govt receives less funds because so many people get thousands of dollars (up to $2500) on loan interest deductions. Many millions are spent on primary education trying to force kids who will never be good at school to do well enough to get admitted to some college when they would have been much better off the be taught a trade.
If I have kids I will strongly encourage them not to go to college because it now hurts, not helps, your economic future.
Where EXACTLY in the United States are you seeing effects of "over education"?????
About 1/3 of Americans currently hold a BS/BA or higher degree...
Even among younger Americans under the age of 35 that percentage rises to only 37%...
Compared to other industrialized nations the US is SERIOUSLY lagging in educational benchmarks consistently ranking behind most other nations in key areas such as Math and Science...
In a world economy that is increasingly knowledge and technology based the LACK of education in this country will be its downfall, there is NO FEAR of "over education in the US"
That is just laughable when clearly the OPPOSITE is true...
If you really think going to college "hurts and doesn't help your economic future" then you really haven't been paying attention to past or future trends.
There is absolutely no arguing that college graduates will out earn high school graduates....never has been an argument and never will be....
There seems to be 2 arguments on this thread at cross purposes.....
I don't think anyone ever said that EVERYONE should go to college for a 4 year degree....for many that is not the correct path for a myriad of reasons..
However, to take it to the other extreme, as you and others have that NO ONE needs to pursue a college degree is beyond ridiculous...
In truth, I think, an educated populace is a benefit to all and MORE than a third of the US population should attain some sort of college degree...but clearly there isn't a need for 75-100% of people going to college.
The idea of saturating the marketplace is fallacious as most NEW jobs and industries will be started by those who have attained higher education.
Yes the world needs ditch diggers, plumbers and electricians....but in a Democracy people should be able to choose their future path and for many Americans the path to future prosperity begins with a college degree.
In my department everyone makes $12 to $13 an hour in a low COL metro area. Myself and another person have a bachelor's degree, several people attended but didn't graduate 4 year school, one person has two different 2 year degrees. All of us are working a job that only requires a HS diploma.
All of these elites pushing college on everyone should first take an Economics 101 class. Supply and Demand. The more people that have college degrees the less valuable the degree becomes because it in no way alters the type of jobs every economy has. If everyone had a bachelor's degree there would be the same number of people working a janitors, dump truck drivers, doctors, teachers, etc.
The effects of over education on the economy are staggering. Millions of people have less disposable income due to repayments on loans they should have never taken out. The govt receives less funds because so many people get thousands of dollars (up to $2500) on loan interest deductions. Many millions are spent on primary education trying to force kids who will never be good at school to do well enough to get admitted to some college when they would have been much better off the be taught a trade.
If I have kids I will strongly encourage them not to go to college because it now hurts, not helps, your economic future.
Exactly what elites are you talking about? Employers?
Where EXACTLY in the United States are you seeing effects of "over education"?????
About 1/3 of Americans currently hold a BS/BA or higher degree...
Even among younger Americans under the age of 35 that percentage rises to only 37%...
Compared to other industrialized nations the US is SERIOUSLY lagging in educational benchmarks consistently ranking behind most other nations in key areas such as Math and Science...
In a world economy that is increasingly knowledge and technology based the LACK of education in this country will be its downfall, there is NO FEAR of "over education in the US"
That is just laughable when clearly the OPPOSITE is true...
If you really think going to college "hurts and doesn't help your economic future" then you really haven't been paying attention to past or future trends.
There is absolutely no arguing that college graduates will out earn high school graduates....never has been an argument and never will be....
There seems to be 2 arguments on this thread at cross purposes.....
I don't think anyone ever said that EVERYONE should go to college for a 4 year degree....for many that is not the correct path for a myriad of reasons..
However, to take it to the other extreme, as you and others have that NO ONE needs to pursue a college degree is beyond ridiculous...
In truth, I think, an educated populace is a benefit to all and MORE than a third of the US population should attain some sort of college degree...but clearly there isn't a need for 75-100% of people going to college.
The idea of saturating the marketplace is fallacious as most NEW jobs and industries will be started by those who have attained higher education.
Yes the world needs ditch diggers, plumbers and electricians....but in a Democracy people should be able to choose their future path and for many Americans the path to future prosperity begins with a college degree.
As for PhDs, the US is the first by far. http://www.statista.com/chart/7272/t...ral-graduates/ "According to an OECD report, the United States had the most doctoral graduates of any country by far, churning out 67,449 of them in 2014, the most recent year data is available. That's over twice as many as second-placed Germany's 28,147. Emerging economies have steadily expanded their higher educational training capacities in recent years so it comes as little surprise that India is high up on the list with 24,300 doctoral graduates."
Not terribly difficult to explain. The pressure from parents and from public high schools to attend four-year universities is immense. I should know: I teach in a public high school. Most students from middle class families never even consider the idea of not going to college because of the socialization that occurs and the pressure to conform to these norms. Fortunately, my sense is that this is beginning to change. The ridiculous costs of college are starting to make some re-evaluate the situation and there are even some students who are starting to question the conventional wisdom they are fed by adults as they are exposed to more people in media who voice contrary, unorthodox opinions on the subject. That's a good thing. It's also a good thing for the remaining blue-collar workers in our economy who are looked down upon in so many ways. At a time when young men, especially, are really struggling, guiding them into skilled trades is a godsend for those young men who have aptitudes in these areas but in the past would otherwise feel the pressure to go to four-year universities where they really don't want to be and where half of them will wash out, anyways.
Those parents aren't talking to their kids about college for no reason. Those parents probably come from the era where they've seen manufacturing, blue collar jobs get off-shored in mass or outright shut down.
Now for what it's worth, yes this is changing because there is a glut of college grads in the hard sciences and supply and demand do come into play.
No one here has ever said that every kid is right for college or that you can't earn a decent living by working the trades. But the fact remains, "on average" college grads will out earned those who are not.
My problem is that this has become another anti-education cheer leading session to stick to those snobbish elites instead of people going where their strengths lie and doing what's right for them.
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